Safe Speed Forums

I dont consider what I did the other day as MLM - as others have stated they've said a few times now.

I checked ahead, behind, and repeated. I pulled out in plenty of time to pass the slower vehicles "safely". Then as I was passing these vehicles much faster "angry white van man" and "captain flash" roar up behind and expect me to jump out of the way... I cant help if they want to travel that fast - and dont want to keep to the law - ultimately the thread is condoning these people to harass and bully slower people in their way. Any other aspect of daily life and there would be an outcry if people were to bully you out of the way.

To accuse me of "obviously" doing something wrong to get flashed misses the point here completely. Its NOT ME speeding - its the car behind... But I'm sure if asked then these two drivers would class me as a mlm... But as others have pointed out - I'm not.

The point is - there are a large percentage of drivers who have neither patience or honesty to see what they are doing is wrong. By believing this they are in fact the real danger on the road - not those trying to adhere to suspect and often conflicting priorities of the law as it stands.
By going fast when others are trying to act within the law is a recipe for disasters of the faster persons making.

Ultimately the easiest thing here would be to allow me to overtake lawfully - and not harrass and bully me whilst doing so.

For the person trying to pick holes in the "shop" queue situation - what a load of rubbish - I'm talking about people in a situation that should be equal... ie two people with equally large shopping trolleys - do I jump out of the way because the person behind me is in more of a hurry - or bullying me to do so !!! Not likely.

So why should we have any different view on the road. Reading between the lines we have people on the thread that are those that moan and whinge when they have to follow someone around the speed limit for any length of time - whether or not this is a true MLM.

You know its true - but none of you will really "believe" or "admit" it... I can almost hear you all cant "We are good drivers really".

Pull the other one...

As long as you keep mentioning the speed limit in relation to other drivers, it's clear that you're trying to police them. If you were really just innocently trying to go about your business and these nasty people were appearing behind you all the time, you wouldn't worry about their speeds. If there really were all these "bullies" appearing behind blameless drivers all the time then many other people on here would be experiencing the same thing. So you must be doing something different to everyone else (and that is not "not speeding" before you say it is).

When you first entered this thread you said you liked going into lane 2/3 to impede "speeders". You've never withdrawn that statement so I assume it still to be true. Hence, when you say things like:


Surely what you actually mean is:


If you really want to avoid "captain flash" (what a ridiculous term) being behind you, all you have to do is wait a couple of seconds and let the faster traffic go by, rather than deliberately pulling out in front of it to obstruct it. The "captain flash"-behind-you situation is entirely of your own making and you cannot be anything but aware of that.

Having frustrated traffic behind you is an inevitable consequence of choosing to obstruct it. If you want to stop it happening, stop attempting to frustrate "speeders".

Basically it comes down to whether your desire to impede people outweighs your desire not to have people behind you wanting to get past. I hope you'll decide that it doesn't. Why don't you at least try not impeding for a while, just in case you find that you prefer it? Surely you don't get that much of a buzz out of exerting control over others.

Be helpful and let people by as much as can reasonably be expected of you. That's what everyone else does, and there's no reason why you can't. Once you're doing that, you can bet that you won't get flashed any more than the rest of us. If you keep getting flashed by oncoming vehicles when overtaking on a single carriageway, it's because you're doing something wrong, and that "something" is pretty easy to guess. Your situation is the same. Please accept that there is a good reason for all the flashing and address the behaviour of yours which is causing it.

_________________
Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

Irrelevant to this thread but I have always thought the acronym MLM stood for MultiLevel Marketing (pyramid selling, to you and me).

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

The situation is not equal, analogously the overtaker will have a zero-sized shopping trolley (unlike the overtakee). The person giving way in the shop queue inherently has to wait a little longer; the person who kept left to let overtakers pass by doesn’t.

I’ve had people give way to me while queuing at the security scanner at airports; I’ve also given way to others (it will happen to you when you fly enough).


You seem to an obsession with people ‘jumping out of the way’, I have pulled you up on this several times already. I repeat: it is a loaded statement (implying a negative action); no-one expects anyone to ‘jump out of the way’.
Also, no-one expects you to relinquish simply because you are bullied into doing so; however, were the ‘captain flash’ really bullying you or were they merely reminding you of your communal obligation?

You think you're a good driver, BUT:

- You can't be bothered to look far enough behind for faster traffic.
- You think that the law gives you the right to impede others.
- You think it's more important to be 'right' than to be safe.
- You think you are entitled to judge others and to behave as a policeman.
- You think your definition of 'right' is superior to anyone elses'.
- I would bet you haven't bothered to take any further driver training since your driving test.

I'll give you a quick working defintion of a good driver:

- One who always manages risk to a low level (Observation, Concentration, Ancitipation, Planning)
- One who always co-operates with other road users (Courtesy and consideration)
- One who takes his skills and responsibilities seriously, and seeks to continuously improve them
- One who realises that safe driving is not about 'rules compliance', but is much more about real-time risk management

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Absolutely not! You'll find equal, or even greater, condemnation of tailgaters elsewhere on this forum.

I have had people barrel up behind me whilst I am making an overtake, often they will not even bother to flash their lights (which to me, like many, is seen as an 'excuse me' (if given in good time) rather than a shove) but simply sit on my tail, far too close.

Does this disturb me? Often! That person, through their driving, is making my road-use far more dangerous.

Will I sit out in the overtaking lane in order to 'teach them a lesson'? Absolutely not! I want anyone who's manner of driving is a threat to my safety as far away from me as possible, preferably ahead of me, where I am more able to manage any interaction to a greater degree.

Have I ever aborted an overtake in order to get the risk ahead and away from me? Occasionally. Dropping back to pull in would involve a net movement towards the tailgater, not a goot thing, but if I see them in time, and there is room for me to move left, let them maintain momentum and move past, before I pull out again, then I would rather delay my journey by 0.5s and maintain my safe separation! I will certainly move left as soon as space is available, to remove the risk from my evironment.

I have to ask, do you even have an inkling of what is meant by "Its not who is right, but who is left"?

Folks, you still seem to be trying to make a confrontation of nothing

If peegee pulled out to overtake without forcing drivers in the lane he/she was entering to brake heavily, and pulled back in after overtaking, then he/she isn't doing anything wrong and isn't a L2M



However peegee, if you could see the catching traffic and pulled out anyway, you are doing something wrong, even if you thought they were going too fast, but your comment that



says to me that this is not the case. Though to be fair, I can't remember the last time I got flashed when changing lane, so maybe your technique could be polished up a bit

As most speed related forums have mentioned - as has this - one of the main reason for getting rid of the speed limits is that were checking it too much and not paying attention to whats ahead of us.

Now call me old fashioned or what - but whats ahead is most important. Neither in the driving test or in popular practice should we do anything other than a quick "Mirror, Signal, Maneuver".

If this forum is now saying that we should care more about the "speeder" behind us before we do anything on the road then I'm afraid this says it all regarding to where peoples priorities are.

If I'm travelling at over 100 feet per second then the last thing I should have to do is look in my mirror even longer to figure out if a car way off in the distance behind me is "speeding" and the person driving is being irresponsible.

You devalue the currency of what you preach if your taking that duplicit stance...

If you tried driving with that attitude on the Autobahn, I think your brain would explode. Either that or you would end up squashed by a Merc.

Why not try the IAM and start to learn what it's REALLY about? You owe it to yourself and to your passengers.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

We are not saying care about the speeder. Just keep yourself safe.

On a motorway you should have a good idea of what is happening all around you especially if you are over taking.

I use my mirror all the time on the motorway, it is easy to judge how fast some one is coming towards you if you check your mirrors more than once before you overtake

_________________
Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

Generally I woud agree, but motorways specifically and dual carriageways to a slightly lesser extent have been engineered to remove some of the "potential dangers" ahead.



I think being aware of your environment includes being aware of traffic approaching from behind just as much as being aware of the traffic you are approaching in front. You [should] look further ahead when driving at 70 than you do at 30 (generally speaking) so why is it so hard to be aware further behind?

_________________
COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Travelling down to work this week on the M6 (three lanes of heavy traffic) I was following a BMW-M in the third lane. I could see the traffic ahead putting on there hazard warning lights and an array of brake lights came on, as a result I reduce my speed slightly and increased my distance between the BM and myself. I checked my mirror and there was a car behind which was a good distance back, so thought everything was fine.

When again looking ahead the BM suddenly anchored on sharply, even though I was at a good distance from the BM, I still had to brake sharply but, still had a good distance between myself and the BM ahead. I looked in my rear mirror and noticed the car behind was approaching faster than what I was happy with, I’m now looking ahead and behind trying to judge what to do if the car behind can’t stop. The car behind is still approaching at high speed and I can now see it was a woman who was on a mobile phone, oblivious to what was going on in front of her.

I’m now starting to get worried and looking all around for an escape. I’m looking in my rear mirror at the car behind again and the woman suddenly notices that I had almost come to a standstill, the look of horror on her face, she drops the mobile and anchors on, I’m thinking she’s going to hit me and shove me into the back of the BM (as the other lanes where full I couldn't pull over), luckily when I looked ahead the BM had opened the gap which allowed me to speed up and give the twerp behind more time to stop, when I looked back it had worked but she was only inches from my rear end. She put the fear of god into me as I thought I was going to get it from the rear and the front when I was pushed into BM. I turned round and gave her a sign to use her eyes. When a gap appeared in the middle lane I pulled over to let her pass, however she pulls in behind me (probably to embarrassed to come along side). I did eventually lose her by getting into the near side lane by which time I’d calmed down and she went passed. What this brought to me was just how much you do have to look both ahead and behind, you never know.

_________________
Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

There's a police driving instructor who posts on the Pistonheads forums "Advanced Driving" and "Speed Plod and the Law" (the latter requires registration) under the name vonhosen.

He has on a number of occasions posted a comment to the effect that there is more danger in what's behind you than what's in front. I have to admit I haven't asked him to explain his reasoning but, having read a great deal of what he has written on PH and elsewhere about advanced driving techniques, I'm sure he's got damned good reasons for saying so.

I suspect it is something to do with the fact that you have absolute control of your position relative to what's ahead but limited control of your position relative to what's behind (other posters here may care to develop this point?).

So I would suggest that your 'old fashioned' belief is misguided or, at least, incomplete. What's behind you is very, very important to your safety, although I have to admit I'm not sure (other than my observation above) how it's elevated to being more important than what's in front.

Who said that? Have you actually read the SafeSpeed manifesto?
You may want to read it, especially the ‘speed limits’ section halfway down.


Of course being aware of what is ahead is important, this doesn't mean knowing what is behind is unimportant. A good driver will also be aware of what is behind them such they can act appropriately or considerately when appropriate, like when emergency vehicles need to pass.


No-one has said or alluded to that, except you just then!
We care and are considerate towards all users, driving, cycling and walking - passing or not!


You don’t have to figure out if they are speeding, you just need to know enough to warrant you not remaining in a middle/right lane unnecessarily or inconsiderately.


Again you end with another laughable conclusion (nevermind you neglecting that your previous arguments have been comprehensively demolished).

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Just a retort to Mr Smith outpouring of points to us.

Mr Smith seems to have cornered the market on what he thinks what it takes to be a good driver - but seems to have a rather narrow perception of what it takes to be a ""really"" good and safe driver.

You think you're a good driver, BUT:

- You can't be bothered to look far enough behind for faster traffic.
**comments on my ability to look behind dont wash see earlier post - person behind has to be aware also and adjust to whats ahead...

- You think that the law gives you the right to impede others.
**Never said such a thing in any post - but its is funny when they rush up behind and harass you as if they are more important but its not impeding - as I'm passing lawfully at the speed limit.
The main thing is that they are breaking the law by speeding not the person ahead of them overtaking at the speed limit or there abouts for the 10% club ;)...

- You think it's more important to be 'right' than to be safe.
**I like to be "lawful" and to be safe in equal measures - something you dont seem to recognise. You seem to think its more important to break or avoid the rules and "bypass" those who stick to them as they are set at present...

- You think you are entitled to judge others and to behave as a policeman.
**Its an offence to impersonate a policeman anyway :) I just try to drive safely between a and b without harassment by the likes of white van man and captain flash sorts.
I'll leave policing to the police however good or bad people percieve they might be. Imho the british police have there problems but arent half as bad as the german or italian or french flavours of police you'll find but thats another story :) ...

- You think your definition of 'right' is superior to anyone elses'.
**You think the person zooming along behind has superior right to me that is crystal clear now - as you've not shown any consideration for me so far in your biased discussion/views...

- I would bet you haven't bothered to take any further driver training since your driving test.
**Again - you assume too much and try and to "catagorise" people without a stitch of evidence! perhaps thats whats wrong with your approach. Know who your dealing with first. Anyway another certificate or test is not the only thing that will make you a better driver - that is quite clear from most peoples experiences in life ...

I'll give you a quick working defintion of a good driver:
***this is what it boils down to - really ?! ...

- One who always manages risk to a low level (Observation, Concentration, Ancitipation, Planning)
**Exactly, parts of what I do - and as such if I'm going slower than captain flash I expect him/her to do exactly the same and anticpate that I dont want to do 80+ and get my licence endorsed.
But something you miss in your list is patience, consideration and a positive frame of mind - you can concentrate, anticpate, observe and plan as much as you like but if your demeanor isnt up to scratch then your even more of a danger to the rest of us...

- One who always co-operates with other road users (Courtesy and consideration)
**And your asking me and others to form a doormat for the speeders and agressive drivers to walk all over. So the faster speeding drivers behind us are showing a lot of courtesy and consideration also - NOT.
I always do this and as such have been commented on how courtious my driving is in and out of towns - something sadly lacking in most areas we now live in...

- One who takes his skills and responsibilities seriously, and seeks to continuously improve them
**Again to imply that other people dont do this or somehow forget to be a good driver or dont take our responsibilities seriously enough is frankly whats wrong on the roads at present and with your sort of attitude - I find this an arrogant stance and possibly why people dont take others like yourself more seriously - I'm not aware of the IAM backing up your stance for example anyways...
http://www.iam.org.uk/motoringtrust/rep ... edrive.htm

- One who realises that safe driving is not about 'rules compliance', but is much more about real-time risk management
**As others have said on this forum and in other sites. its a complete mix of rules, danger perception, risk management, driving skill. conditions, road design and peoples frame of mind that make up truly safe driving.
To show a continual preference to avoid the rules as part of your commentary implies quite clearly where your priorities stand and will only ever lead to levels of anarchy on the roads...

I think Peegee's last post has said it all for me.

He would pull out from L1 to L2 even though there is a car approaching from behind at an undetermined speed.

Utter lunacy.

Peegee you are a danger to yourself and others.

...and is clearly just spoiling for a fight, as my repeated attempts to point out that elements of what he or she is saying are only met with a different thrust of argument. Clearly just here to stir.

You said you learn from you r experiences, you clearly don't. If you did you would not get flashed all the time.

You refuse to accept your responsibility in how you interact with other cars and how these other cars interact with you.

If you are kind and respectful to others they will be respectful to you.

This is similar to the speech I gave my year 7-Tutor group on Tuesday.

I spend a lot of time in my job considering how I interact and react to individuals. If it goes wrong (which is less often now) I think about how I could have dealt with it better. Yes I am right in disciplining my pupils, however the way I go about it maybe wrong and I have to be mindfull of that………..Stops rant.

_________________
Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

Nice weasel words!
By blocking them, you assert yourself to be more important then want you believe them to think they are.
And yes, it is impeding.


What about considerate? That's 'something you dont seem to recognise.'


Probably not a bad deduction to make given the conveyed importance of not antagonising others.


Something that MLMs so obviously lack.


Why not?


Now who is making false claims?

peegee, you're ridiculous!

You are arguing against points that noone is making, ignoring vital points that don't suit you, and misrepresenting or misinterpreting almost everything said to you that you do notice!

Worry less about being right and more about being safe, and use your brain for heaven's sake!