Safe Speed Forums

Hi all. Please help.

I've just been chased round the estate by somebody. My estate has a perimeter road, 30MPH SL although with the speed humps and alley ways to the side. Vehicle behind was uncomfortably close as I slowed down for humps (I could see no road surface between myself and his bumper in my rear view mirror - exactly how close he was I could not judge reliably).

I slowed down to encourage the driver to pass, to no avail, so sped up again, and had to brake "in two halves" approaching the next hump as the vehicle didn't appear to slow when I first applied my brakes. All OK so far as far as I know.

After this second (and last) hump I signalled left and slowed down to try to encourage him to pass; and then I got worried because he signalled left and slowed down too (bear in mind that there was no traffic behind him and no junction for a while), so I signalled right again to make clear that I was going to continue, then turned left into a side street, down which he followed me, keeping uncomfortably close (bear in mind I was safely at the limit of 30MPH at this point), so I slowed and made a left turn deliberately signalling late hoping to shake him off, but he signalled and followed me round. This road is a crescent, so I followed it round and turned right to double back on myself. He was still, obviously purposefully, placing himself very close when I slowed to take a junction. He then followed me round the humpless part of the perimeter road at 50MPH (naughty of me I know but I figured if he wasn't in fact roadraging then he would drive slower, and I did feel threatened at this point). He followed me at 50, until I slowed down to turn up the other end of the road I turned up originally. He continued to follow, then obviously gave up and turned into what I assume was his home street. I continued home panic-stricken. I've not been so scared since I was hijacked in South Africa last year.

This guy didn't seem too young (late 20s, 30s or 40s), so wasn't exactly a boy racer. Though I've noticed a lot of rudeness in the "more mature" driver to be honest. Strangely though he didn't appear angry.

Now after this lengthy story, can you please answer me a couple of things:--

* If it was an off-duty policeman in his own car, wanting to pull me over for some reason, would he have behaved like this? If he was, then would he have anything he could hold against me (given I had no way of knowing he was a bobby trying to pull me over rather than someone chasing me through aggression)?

* If not a bobby, is there anything he could report me for, either for the purpose of getting his own back or for legitimate reasons? Even for breaking the SL despite feeling under threat?

* In either case, could I have handled the situation better? I hope it's something I can just stop worrying about and put down to experience.

Please no flaming, just some constructive advice for the future would be appreciated.

Was there anything in the precursor to the start of this unnerving experience that you may have inadvertently done that would cause thie following driver to want to get "own back" on you?

This happened to me some years ago, but I realised I'd unwittingly held him up. He was intimidating me very badly. I proceded as normally as I reasonably could, but refused to park up where I was intending to visit a friend, carried on and pulled up outside the police station - and he carried on past giving me the finger. I think he realised he'd made me go out of my way - but of course he must have done so too!

Thanks for your response.



Hmmm difficult question.

One thing that is hazy is who followed me from the dual carriageway onto the estate perimeter road. As I left the dual carriageway (a large-ish roundabout, left turn) there was a vehicle turning right across me (not signalling, may I add) whom I turned 'in front of', but didn't pose any immediate danger -- certainly none that would require hard braking to avoid. If it was the chaser, then maybe he didn't like that, else it's not linked. This only recently came back to me.

Next, whoever followed me off that roundabout didn't seem to like me slowing to turn left at a mini-roundabout onto the estate, and right onto the perimeter road (where this fiasco began). I'm pretty sure this was the chaser, but couldn't swear to it.

The rest I explained earlier -- slowing to encourage passing (maybe too hard?) and braking for the humps (yes, possibly too hard again, certainly not as early or gently as I usually do).

While I'm often tailgated, people will normally pass especially when I give them an explicit signal or opportunity to do so.

Some important questions about driver psychology:
* Even if I upset him somehow, was it really worth the aggro persuing me (I probably only delayed him by about 30 seconds -- the estate isn't exactly huge -- and he delayed himself more by chasing me round)?
* If he was in such a rush, then why didn't he just overtake?
* If he thought I did something dangerous at the roundabout or slowed down too sharply, then why didn't he file me under "headcases" and keep clear?
* (rhetorical question) When were you last chased round town for walking too slowly or walking across the path of someone over 3 seconds away (depending which situation may have triggered the chase)?



I remember now my sister-in-law's father having been through something similar in Bristol, and all he did was make a polite wave to a driver for some good deed or to give them right of way (I can't remember which), and the driver mis-interpreted this as an aggressive gesture and chased the poor guy round Bristol. Seems even the best of intentions can backfire.

A nasty situation and an interesting question...

I guess one needs to assume that one is 'under attack' and behave accordingly. The first objectives would then be prevention or escape. Prevention probably means driving to a Police station, but assuming there isn't one handy (or it's bloody closed!), then we have to try and escape. I would drive slowly and steadily until I found a good place to stop - we'll soon see what a good place to stop looks like...

Having stopped three scenarios are possible.

1) He may just drive past. Problem solved.

2) He may stop behind, jump out of his vehicle and start to approach. In this case you wait until he's as far from his vehicle as possible and then drive off forwards as quickly as you safely can. You'll make a serious gap while he's still trying to get back in his vehicle. If he manages to close the gap before you have vanished repeat the process. Of couse if he stays in his vehicle, you can stay in yours and be quite safe.

3) He might drive past and swing across in front, blocking your progress and then jump out and approach. In which case you need to speed off in reverse, again as late as possible, when he's as far away from his vehicle as possible. If you have chosen the right place to stop you'll be able to turn around quite easily and speed off.

So the right place to stop means...

- good clear space in front
- an easy turn round behind (preferably a wide side road or entrance on the left behind).

I think the golden rule here is preserve your mobility don't end up blocked into a cul de sac!

Beyond the stuff so far mentioned are a whole series of ramming techniques suitable only for life threatening anti-hijack situations. I'm not going into those here.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Don't stop until you've called the police, if you have a mobile phone. Tell them where you are and arrange somewhere to meet them, if he's still following you by that point.

Regardless, glad you escaped safely on this occasion, I hope you got his numberplate; you should report it to the police.

I didn't think of this. Maybe I could have stopped for longer and seen what happened.



Yes, I was careful not to drive into cul-de-sacs. I didn't try to turn into home either -- I chose a random-ish route which didn't give any clues as to where I lived.



Thankfully, I don't think this was a hijack situation -- he gave up. I think he just had a point to make, and buggered off when he thought he'd made it. I'm sure a blast of a horn or a gesture would have been sufficient (even if rude) however.



As much as I'd have liked to do this in hindsight, picking up my mobile or reading his numberplate couldn't have been further from my mind at this point. I know the make and colour, but there are loads of cars the same. I've heard of ragers reporting others, which was one of my main concerns, and so I am a bit worried that I wasn't able to report it.

My worry is that it may have been some-one wanting to steal car.......

I don't know what you drive and please don't feel the need to say on here, but.....Some thieves may follow a car to see where it's from and steal it there. Others, may wait until you're "boxed in" ..... say, at traffic lights, and use force to take the car from you.

NEVER allow yourself to be boxed in, always leave enough space for you to escape around any vehicle in front, even if it means going through red traffic lights if need be.

Now and again, I need to drive into Manchester at night to pick someone up, I hate Cities! It's quite some miles away but I know that forced car theft is rife there. I'm wary, the doors are locked automatically anyway but if yours aren't, then make sure they are. I NEVER stop too close to the vehicle in front at junctions or traffic lights being ready to drive around them if need be.

A sign of Britain in the 21st century I'm afraid......still, the Politicians tell us that crime is falling.....


er.................right!

Stay safe!

I find this so sad, around 20 years ago a friend got engaged to a girl from USA, her dad driving in New York at night never stoped for red traffic lights so he coulnts be attacked.

Couldnt happen here could it!!!!

_________________
Nick

It's "the Norm" in Capetown S.A. I believe at night.......... You DON'T stop at traffic lights after dark because gun totting "blecks" wait for you to stop, jump over the wall and shoot you through the head to steal from you.......

IMHO...... The greater the gap between the rich and poor......the more rampant is the criminality.......the LESS safe you are!

You're absolutely right!.............

i would suggest thinking about evasive driving. that is a course i would love to do myself but until then, there are a few tricks that can work

if your lights are on and the offender is close, turn your fog lights on and floor it. they will see red lights, think you are braking and slow down opening the gap
keep the gear low and revs high. if you want to turn corners, do it hard and fast but without the need to change gear. if you want to floor it, you wont need to change down.
keep them guessing. feign turns, turn at the last second, go all the way roundabouts etc etc etc.

prior to attempting these manouvres, the golden rule is get to know both your own limits and the cars limits. find a road with plenty of curves and keep pushing the car a wee bit further every time you use the road but not to the extent that you lose control of it. you can lose a much faster car if you know how to handle your own. corners are your best weapon if you know how to get round them at high speed - a little accelerator to keep the power on but not too much plus your left foot hovering over the clutch (never brake on a corner) in case you need to shave off a couple of MPHs without losing control.
keep your steering smooth. jerking it can be disastrous



this is all part of the reason i will only buy manual cars. i need a clutch pedal to assist in cornering

_________________
Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

How's that work then?

If you put the clutch in without toucing the brake you're not going to slow down that much surely.

_________________
www.misspelled-signs.com - A tribute to illiterate signwriters.

I am an auto fan now. However, when in a manual, braking (where appropriate - and there are such occasions) on a corner is far less bad than declutching. What on earth would you want to take away one of your three primary degrees of control (which are acceleration, braking and steering)?

you brake before the corner. braking while cornering throws all sorts of physical forces at your car and it wont do much good for the brake that is taking a lot more weight than it should be. under straight conditions, both front brakes will take an even amount of force (back towards the front) but when cornering, side forces are also a factor so (eg left hand corner) your front right brake will take both back towards the front forces plus left towards right which will also take force away from the left brake as most of the cars mass is being pushed to the front right.

its been 10 years since my skid course but i was taught to accelerate a little to maintain grip but not too much or you will understeer. dipping the clutch allows the tyres to find grip themselves so you will slow down a little bit from natural forces (friction/gravity) but without losing control or putting excess stress on the brakes. this only works with forward planning of course ie not going into the corner too fast in the first place

i have sent my back end out a little now and again on purpose but i have also had a couple of skids that were not intended. the first was over the M4 where i hit something slidey and i was head sideways towards the barrier above the motorway on the roundabout at around 40MPH. i steered towards the intended line of travel, dipped the clutch and allowed the back tyres to find some grip. that was a FWD car.
the 2nd surprise was a RWD supra turbo. in 2nd gear at around 15MPH, the back end just went with no warning. again, dipped the clutch and steered towards my intended course of direction and it came back into line (albeit fishtailing a couple of times) and carried on.

if you decide to find the limits of yourself and your car, do a skid course. after that, use a road that you are familiar with so you know the bends but make sure it is NSL. you dont need to go over the speed limit but you wont learn anything at 30 either. there arent many cars around these days that cant handle a bend at 30. when you hear the tyres scuffing, thats about as far as the car will gp before it loses grip. every car is different (tyres, suspension, weight etc etc etc) so every time you change your car, its back to square one. dont expect to find the limits within a few weeks. i would give it at least a year. the first few months will see you getting used to the cars basic controls and limits before starting to see what it can do. anyone can floor it on a straight line but most of the fast car drivers havent a clue how to deal with bends which is where your advantage comes in. find the roads that will give you the strategic advantage and leave the offending car trying not to take out a hedge or tree

_________________
Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

This is strange, risky and interesting all at the same time.

I'm worried about any general advice about dipping the clutch during cornering. Apart for the classic 'you're not in proper control' dogmatic complaint, there's a serious issue about smooth re-engagement if you need engine power. Many many people could cause a skid by bringing the clutch up again with the wrong revs showing.

In scandanavian countries, but not so much in the UK, folk are frequently taught to dip the clutch as part of a skid recovery procedure. It works brilliantly when engine power was the cause of the skid and is pretty much harmless at other times, except potentially during re-engagement.

Where did you get this from Scanny? I'm curious...

But under certain narrow circumstances I do believe that dipping the clutch during cornering might be by far the best way out of a mess. Hence my post: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15413

Interesting, very interesting.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Interesting indeed. I'd always got the impression that lift off oversteer is more a FWD problem, hence most FWD cars being set up to understeer like crazy to avoid getting to the point where it would oversteer if you lifted off - early Pug 205GTi are an exception. In a RWD oversteer is usually created with an excess of power over grip, and jolly good fun it is too.

The clutch move is interesting, because I'm not sure what generates lift-off oversteer in a RWD car, is it the lack of drive or the engine braking? Because if it a lack of drive then lifting off or depressing the clutch will have the same effect.

Incidently I wouldn't always take tyre noise as a idea of the grip limit being reached. Some tyres will never make a peep, and some will howl forever. And some are just telling you they're under-inflated. Equally and perhaps thankfully most drivers underestimate the amount of grip they have. In panic situations they will brake when actually just turning a little harder would have done the trick.

Barkstar
Who'll be doing a little adhesion testing on the Lombard Rally 2007 shortly

_________________
The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

Lift-off oversteer is about weight transfer. If you're already near the limit of grip at the back when you lift off the change from acceleration to deceleration causes a forwards weight transfer unweighting the back wheels.

I expect on occasion the engine braking drag contributes to the back breaking free, but if asked to guess wildly, I'd say that at least 85% of the effect was the weight transfer.

Lift off oversteer is at its most unpleasant when a driver lifts off because he knows he's losing grip. This is the common scenario. Lifting off when grip is already being lost makes it suddenly and dramatically worse.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I had a similar sort of experience a couple of years back. This guy in a merc would follow me most of the way to work, tailgating me, weaving all over the place, waving his fists about and so on because I was in his way. This would happen on and off.

After the third time he did this, and ended up running me off the road while overtaking me, I had a chat with the police, expressing my concerns that the guy is some sort of nutter.

They track the car, and it comes back as a company car. So they phone me up to say they're on their way over to the company to speak to the driver (If you don't like being embarrassed at work, don't misbehave in company vehicles..).

They say they'll see what he's like and if they can have a quiet word about driving styles, and if he's a pain, they'll talk to him about stalking.

So there's a pause of about an hour, and the policewoman calls me back and says that they've spoken to him and he was an absolute arsehole so now he has a caution for stalking and that if he does it again, I'm to call them up and they'll "take it further".


I've never seen him since.