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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 08:44 
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article ... 62,00.html

Quote:
25mph cyclist who killed man on pavement faces jail

Steven Morris
Saturday October 6, 2007
The Guardian

A cyclist who caused the death of a man he crashed into while riding on the pavement at 25mph was facing jail yesterday after admitting "wanton or furious" cycling.

Peter Messen, 28, ploughed into Gary Green as he packed his car in front of his house to go on holiday to Venice with his girlfriend. Witnesses watched as Messen sped "like a bat out of hell" down the hill in the village of Stenalees, near St Austell, Cornwall. Seconds before the collision one villager shouted out to him: "You are going to kill someone."

Messen mounted the kerb as he came down the hill on his Apollo mountain bike just as Mr Green, 41, who lived with his partner and her four children, walked across the pavement to fetch his glasses from his house. He was knocked to the ground unconscious and died four days later in the Royal Cornwall hospital from head injuries including multiple skull fractures.

Appearing at Truro crown court yesterday, Messen, of Swindon, Wiltshire, pleaded guilty to causing bodily harm by wanton or furious cycling. The crime, brought under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, carries a maximum sentence of two years in jail.

An inquest earlier this year heard how in March last year Messen had borrowed the bicycle from a nephew and had not ridden it before. He was cycling to another village, Bugle, and moved on to the pavement because the traffic was heavy.

One witness, David East, a delivery driver from Devon, told the inquest: "My attention was drawn to him as the speed he was travelling at was far too fast for someone cycling on the pavement. I saw that he continued to pick up speed as he went down the hill and I said to my colleague that he would send someone flying if he hit them.

"He was on the pavement where he shouldn't have been. He had a total disregard for anyone else but himself. He was not giving the impression that he was having any difficulty in slowing down. He looked like he knew exactly what he was doing and travelling at the speed he was."

Mr East's colleague Andrew Price said he saw Mr Green hold out his hands in shock just before he was struck by the cyclist.

Don Lowe was walking back to his home from the local shop when he was passed by the cyclist. He told the inquest: "When he passed me I shouted after him 'You are going to kill someone' but I don't believe he would have heard me. I remember thinking that he had an arrogant manner as he didn't have a bell to warn me to get out of the way."

In a police interview, Messen said he could remember riding down the hill but not the accident. He could only remember waking up in hospital. He said at the inquest: "I am really sorry about what has happened and I wish it had never happened."

Yesterday's court hearing was adjourned until November 16 for pre-sentence reports.

A very good example to quote in response to those who claim that cycling on the pavement isn't anything to be concerned about, or that cycling in general poses little risk to pedestrians.

And let's hope he receives a sentence in the 6-8 year range comparable with those typically given for "causing death by dangerous driving".

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:48 
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PeterE wrote:
And let's hope he receives a sentence in the 6-8 year range comparable with those typically given for "causing death by dangerous driving".


Unfortunately in the article it says that the maximum sentence for "wanton or furious" cycling is 2 years


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:04 
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cerberus wrote:
PeterE wrote:
And let's hope he receives a sentence in the 6-8 year range comparable with those typically given for "causing death by dangerous driving".

Unfortunately in the article it says that the maximum sentence for "wanton or furious" cycling is 2 years

Perhaps they should have charged him with manslaughter then :x

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 14:21 
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PeterE wrote:
cerberus wrote:
PeterE wrote:
And let's hope he receives a sentence in the 6-8 year range comparable with those typically given for "causing death by dangerous driving".

Unfortunately in the article it says that the maximum sentence for "wanton or furious" cycling is 2 years

Perhaps they should have charged him with manslaughter then :x


Oh I dont know. Long prison sentences dished out for the consequences of serious accedents dont really serve public interests despite the fact that safety campaigners/politicians like them so much

(Remember, the "revenge" mentality is giving the sentance for the consequence rather than the action or the intent. This is completly contrary to the basic tennents of justice)

However, One would hope that the victims family will take him to the cleaners in the civil court!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 15:32 
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In the current climate he will probably get off with a caution. Look at the facts:

- He was on a bike (lots of green points)
- He stopped someone going on a foreign holiday and emitting all that CO2 (more green points)
- He was on the pavement for his own safety to protect him from those evil motorists.

Sorry to be so cynical, but I am sick and tired of cyclists acting like they have no responsibility for road safety while car drivers take ALL the responsibility. I see that "causing bodily harm" now includes death.

Dusty wrote:
Long prison sentences dished out for the consequences of serious accedents dont really serve public interests despite the fact that safety campaigners/politicians like them so much

In general, I agree with you as heavy punishments where there is no bad intent to correct by punishment are pointless but I would call this negligent, reckless behaviour, not an accident.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 16:00 
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In general, I agree with you as heavy punishments where there is no bad intent to correct by punishment are pointless but I would call this negligent, reckless behaviour, not an accident


All true.

But I still maintain that prison is inappropriate.

I doubt it will deter anybody else (You can only "deter" somebody from persuing a chosen course of action. IE You can "Deter" a burglar or a footpad, but you can not "deter" somebody from making poor descisions!)

It will cost *me* through my taxes to keep the guy incarcerated (what is it these days to keep somebody banged up?? £50,000PA?? £100,000??!) Plus, on top of that, the "Hidden cost" that he is no longer contributing economically to socioty and that after a lengthy term inside may well never do so agian.

It will do nothing for the victims dependents.(appart from provide a small sense of revenge)

All in all, serves no purpose.

Far better (were it me passing sentance)

1) 50 Lashes! In public! (Very cheap to administer, satisfies the vengence brigade and sends the message to the general public)

2) Perp made finantially responsible for victims dependents untill, say, youngest child has reached the age of 18! (We can debate that one)

Now THATS called being made to take responsibilty for your mistakes.
Not what we have today where somebody gets banged up for a few years and then gets let out early for saying how sorry he was!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 21:22 
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malcolmw wrote:
Sorry to be so cynical, but I am sick and tired of cyclists acting like they have no responsibility for road safety while car drivers take ALL the responsibility. I see that "causing bodily harm" now includes death.



So if said cyclist was running around town with a machete - he should get special treatment .

A bike / a car / a deadly weapon - all equate to the user having some responsibility for their actions. All should expect equal treatment for injuries caused.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 21:31 
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Dusty wrote:
PeterE wrote:
cerberus wrote:
PeterE wrote:
And let's hope he receives a sentence in the 6-8 year range comparable with those typically given for "causing death by dangerous driving".

Unfortunately in the article it says that the maximum sentence for "wanton or furious" cycling is 2 years

Perhaps they should have charged him with manslaughter then :x

Oh I dont know. Long prison sentences dished out for the consequences of serious accedents dont really serve public interests despite the fact that safety campaigners/politicians like them so much

Actually, I totally agree with you there, I was just expressing annoyance at the disparity in treatment between cyclists and motorists, and the fact that the former are put on a moral pedestal while the latter are regarded as homicidal scum.

The value of long prison sentences (or indeed any prison sentence at all) for driving offences where there is no mens rea is IMV very questionable. Gary Hart anyone?

But not locking someone up who is responsible for a fatal accident is a bit of a hard pill to swallow.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:49 
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PeterE wrote:
Dusty wrote:
PeterE wrote:
cerberus wrote:
PeterE wrote:
And let's hope he receives a sentence in the 6-8 year range comparable with those typically given for "causing death by dangerous driving".

Unfortunately in the article it says that the maximum sentence for "wanton or furious" cycling is 2 years

Perhaps they should have charged him with manslaughter then :x

Oh I dont know. Long prison sentences dished out for the consequences of serious accedents dont really serve public interests despite the fact that safety campaigners/politicians like them so much

Actually, I totally agree with you there, I was just expressing annoyance at the disparity in treatment between cyclists and motorists, and the fact that the former are put on a moral pedestal while the latter are regarded as homicidal scum.

The value of long prison sentences (or indeed any prison sentence at all) for driving offences where there is no mens rea is IMV very questionable. Gary Hart anyone?

But not locking someone up who is responsible for a fatal accident is a bit of a hard pill to swallow.



I agree that this really should have been a manslaughter charge as there seems to be a very strong indication from all the reported stories that there was an element of deliberate hard riding down this pavement.
It is also illegal to ride on the pavement in any case :roll:


No excuse for riding on the pavement - especially when the CTC raised plenty of fuss over proposed changes to the Highway Code suggesting they use cycle lanes when pracitcable etc. It's either a right to use the roads or not. Pedestrians have a right to use a pavement without fear of being mown down by some maniac on a bicycle (or some idiot trying to park a car) when all's said and done :furious:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 13:01 
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In Gear wrote:
No excuse for riding on the pavement


Certainly not in this case, but in some circumstances it's the clear choice. Narrow uphill road, heavy traffic, nice wide empty pavement for example. Obviously if any pedestrians do appear they must have absolute right of way and be free from intimidation.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:46 
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Zamzara wrote:-

Quote:
Narrow uphill road, heavy traffic, nice wide empty pavement


Then get off and push the f******g thing! :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 13:43 
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Dusty wrote:
Far better (were it me passing sentance)

1) 50 Lashes! In public! (Very cheap to administer, satisfies the vengence brigade and sends the message to the general public)

2) Perp made finantially responsible for victims dependents untill, say, youngest child has reached the age of 18! (We can debate that one)

Now THATS called being made to take responsibilty for your mistakes.
Not what we have today where somebody gets banged up for a few years and then gets let out early for saying how sorry he was!


I just want to post here to say I completely agree here. Prison for this mans costs the public, it wont serve real purpose. Making him financially responsible for his actions is real punishment as well as not costing the rest of us -


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 14:00 
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Oscar wrote:
Zamzara wrote:-

Quote:
Narrow uphill road, heavy traffic, nice wide empty pavement


Then get off and push the f******g thing! :roll:


"Just stick to the speed limit" :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 14:12 
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mmltonge wrote:
Dusty wrote:
Far better (were it me passing sentance)

1) 50 Lashes! In public! (Very cheap to administer, satisfies the vengence brigade and sends the message to the general public)

2) Perp made finantially responsible for victims dependents untill, say, youngest child has reached the age of 18! (We can debate that one)

Now THATS called being made to take responsibilty for your mistakes.
Not what we have today where somebody gets banged up for a few years and then gets let out early for saying how sorry he was!


I just want to post here to say I completely agree here. Prison for this mans costs the public, it wont serve real purpose. Making him financially responsible for his actions is real punishment as well as not costing the rest of us -


I quite like this too.

If forced in a civil court to compensate AND sent to prison in a criminal court, then he'd be unlikely to be able to compensate while in prison.

The compensation aspects seem better all round.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 14:24 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
The compensation aspects seem better all round.

Yes, but few people have the financial means to provide such compensation, which is why drivers are required to have insurance. Perhaps cyclists should be as well - but that's another issue.

If people can't afford insurance then they are likely to be "men of straw" who would be unable to pay for any compensation themselves.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 14:52 
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PeterE wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
The compensation aspects seem better all round.

Yes, but few people have the financial means to provide such compensation, which is why drivers are required to have insurance. Perhaps cyclists should be as well - but that's another issue.

If people can't afford insurance then they are likely to be "men of straw" who would be unable to pay for any compensation themselves.


There is that, I agree. But from time to time the courts order 50% or 60% of income to be forfeit, which at once provides an ongoing compensation stream for the victim's family and a punishment.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 17:29 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
PeterE wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
The compensation aspects seem better all round.

Yes, but few people have the financial means to provide such compensation, which is why drivers are required to have insurance. Perhaps cyclists should be as well - but that's another issue.

If people can't afford insurance then they are likely to be "men of straw" who would be unable to pay for any compensation themselves.


There is that, I agree. But from time to time the courts order 50% or 60% of income to be forfeit, which at once provides an ongoing compensation stream for the victim's family and a punishment.


And we could, of course, also reintroduce indentured labour :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 18:09 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
But from time to time the courts order 50% or 60% of income to be forfeit, which at once provides an ongoing compensation stream for the victim's family and a punishment.

Until the offender decides that it isn't worth working. What happens then?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 18:35 
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malcolmw wrote:
Until the offender decides that it isn't worth working. What happens then?

Indeed, pursuing people of very limited means for compensation is counter-productive and vindictive.

If you can only earn the minimum wage, you can't afford to give up 50%.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 18:42 
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malcolmw wrote:
Until the offender decides that it isn't worth working. What happens then?


PeterE wrote:
If you can only earn the minimum wage, you can't afford to give up 50%.


Good points, well made. Difficult init?

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