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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 19:46 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/7036777.stm

Quote:
Death crash teenager not guilty

An 18-year-old has been cleared of killing four friends by dangerous driving days after passing his test.

The jury at Cardiff Crown Court did find Craig Ramshaw, of Ebbw Vale, guilty of careless driving and he was given a conditional discharge.

Ramshaw was driving along a mountain road in Powys, at around 2100 GMT on 2 November 2006, when he lost control.

Backseat passengers Danielle Caswell, Katie Roberts, both 15, and Louise Jones and Kayleigh Parry, 16, all died.

Ramshaw was also been banned from driving for two years and will have to retake his test.

Judge Nicholas Cooke QC told him: "Human life is priceless and I feel it would be interpreted as an insult to the memory of the four girls if I imposed a financial penalty on you.

"As a result of your careless driving, four young lives have been lost and four families will never be the same again.

"You will have to bear responsibility for that for the rest of your life and that is a terrible burden."

Ramshaw, an apprentice plumber, had always denied causing the girls' deaths by dangerous driving.

The six-day trial heard how three days after passing his driving test, the teenager was driving along a mountain road - B4560 between Garnlydan and Llangynidr - when he lost control and the car flipped over.

'Quite persistent'

He told the court he was not driving at more than 40mph when he felt his back wheel skid.

The girls - all close friends at Glyncoed Comprehensive in Ebbw Vale - were thrown from the vehicle.

They were not wearing seatbelts, unlike Ramshaw and a front seat passenger, who survived with minor injuries.

The prosecution claimed that Ramshaw was "showing off" as he drove his mother's car at "considerable speed".

The jury has also heard evidence from Ramshaw, who said he felt "pressurised" to take the girls for a ride in the Vauxhall Corsa.

The teenager said he had offered to take the girls out before his friend asked him to pick him up, and that he did not want to drive with all of them in the car.

On Monday, jurors were asked by the defence to find Ramshaw guilty on a lesser charge of careless driving.

In his summing up on Tuesday, Judge Nicholas Cooke QC told them: "No case can have a sadder context than this one.

"You must completely put aside sympathy on the one hand for the terrible loss four families have suffered, and the nightmare this trial must be for the defendant and his family."

'Hell and back'

But he said the decision was whether Ramshaw's driving had been careless or dangerous and they must judge it entirely on the facts.

Patrick Harrington QC, defending, asked the jury if Ramshaw's driving fell below the standard expected of an ordinary competent driver, in which case he said it was careless.

Or was it, he asked, "far" below that standard - in which case, it was dangerous.

He invited the jury to conclude that days after passing his driving test, Ramshaw had made a minor error - turning the wheel slightly too far on a bend - which had resulted in the deaths and had wrecked the lives of many families.

He stressed to the jury that the police driver who had given evidence for the prosecution, had himself conceded that a minor error could have caused the crash.

Ramshaw's own family, he said, had "been to hell and back".

As the jury returned their verdict, Ramshaw sat in the dock with his head bowed and broke down.

Reacting to the verdicts, a statement on behalf of the girls' families thanked "all those involved for their tremendous help and support during this difficult time."

It continued: "Unfortunately, this outcome will not bring the girls back. The families' lives also ended on the 2nd November 2006.

"As parents we were unable to control the situation and take care of our precious girls. Never again will (our) lives be the same."

A very sad case all round, but reassuring that juries are still prepared to look at the facts and not be motivated by a spirit of retribution.

However, under the new law on "Causing Death by Careless Driving", would he have ended up going to prison anyway? Would that have served any useful purpose?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 20:17 
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In BBC News - I heard them report that

Quote:


The judge passed comment that young drivers in particular must always be aware of the dangers of "speeding"



I suspect this kid's inexperience was perhaps the prime cause in this incident. How far "high spirits may have kicked in" - cannot say given the kid said he felt "pressurised" :roll: The girls were not wearing seatbelts either and there will always be that nagging "what if/if only" for ever more for all tragically involved in this. :cry:

I just know that being a father of teenagers - immaturity does show up quite badly at times :roll: - and I suppose we've all been through that stage as well. My parents tell me I was far worse than my own kids - but that's grandparents' indulgences of course :wink:

Our three young drivers have perhaps been lucky in that both me and Wildy :neko: are smitten with our love of motor cars and always seeking to improve on our skills. I think we've infected the kids with this rather "benign lurgy" (lurks will shudder :wink:) which evolves around internal combustion engines ..


But hearfelt condolences to all the families concerned.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 23:08 
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Quote:
The girls - all close friends at Glyncoed Comprehensive in Ebbw Vale - were thrown from the vehicle.

They were not wearing seatbelts, unlike Ramshaw and a front seat passenger, who survived with minor injuries.


The above statement is a crucial point. His careless (or maybe dangerous) driving caused the crash, but did it cause the deaths? Given that he and a passenger who were belted survived with minor injuries it seems probable that the girls would also have survived if they had been wearing seat belts and so were not thrown from the car.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 09:48 
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Another crucial point.

There were SIX people IN A CORSA!! :shock:

(My Landcruiser is only rated at seven, and I could probabally put a corsa in the back :lol: )

I shudder to think what effect that would have had on the handling!

The danger is surly not one of "Speeding" but of dangerously overloading a small vehicle.

Yet again the "Machine" aims its vollys at the wrong target and no useful lessons are learned! :roll: :roll: :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:09 
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Dusty wrote:
Another crucial point.

There were SIX people IN A CORSA!! :shock:

(My Landcruiser is only rated at seven, and I could probabally put a corsa in the back :lol: )

I shudder to think what effect that would have had on the handling!

The danger is surly not one of "Speeding" but of dangerously overloading a small vehicle.


Would it have been overloaded though? Given that a Corsa can legally seat three people in the back, would having one more shoehorned in there have made any more of a difference to the handling than, say, a large weekly shop packed into the boot, or a full tank of petrol? What if all five people in the car were all a bit heavier, thus taking their combined weight up to the same as the combined weight of these six? I'm not condoning the carriage of more people than you have sets of seatbelts, but that's a different issue to carrying more mass than the vehicle is designed to carry.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:16 
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Twister wrote:
Would it have been overloaded though? Given that a Corsa can legally seat three people in the back, would having one more shoehorned in there have made any more of a difference to the handling than, say, a large weekly shop packed into the boot, or a full tank of petrol? What if all five people in the car were all a bit heavier, thus taking their combined weight up to the same as the combined weight of these six? I'm not condoning the carriage of more people than you have sets of seatbelts, but that's a different issue to carrying more mass than the vehicle is designed to carry.

Four 10-stone girls would weigh about the same as three 13-stone blokes.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 22:08 
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PeterE wrote:
Twister wrote:
Would it have been overloaded though? Given that a Corsa can legally seat three people in the back, would having one more shoehorned in there have made any more of a difference to the handling than, say, a large weekly shop packed into the boot, or a full tank of petrol? What if all five people in the car were all a bit heavier, thus taking their combined weight up to the same as the combined weight of these six? I'm not condoning the carriage of more people than you have sets of seatbelts, but that's a different issue to carrying more mass than the vehicle is designed to carry.

Four 10-stone girls would weigh about the same as three 13-stone blokes.


I'd say a corsa isn't really designed to carry 3 13 stone blokes in the back... I've had "intresting" handling from two ~16 stoners in the back of a ford fiasco...

Although I remember our old school bus driver carrying what must have been at least 9 of us in an old mercedes 220 (stacked headlights) when his sherpa minibus used to break down. He was adamant that as his minibus licence entitled him to carry 16 that counted for a car too... :scratchchin:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 09:28 
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What is more, the reason why the girls wernt wearing seatbelts was likly to be because with 4 of them across the back seat they were not able to!

THATS overloading too, regardless of how heavy they were!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:06 
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Dusty wrote:
What is more, the reason why the girls wernt wearing seatbelts was likly to be because with 4 of them across the back seat they were not able to!

THATS overloading too, regardless of how heavy they were!


That also a big part of the tragedy. These kids would not have paid attention to this. To them - high spirited giggles und they would not take into account their pal not experienced any more than this kid aware enough of the danger of overloading this Corsa. We not teaching properly here. :roll: Terrible tragedy und it not just the 4 families who lost their daughters.. the two families of the surviving kids und the teenage driver himself also suffer for lifetime over all this.

We really must teach just as much about keeping a car, loading a car.. maintaining a car properly .. all impact on how safely we control the vehicle. It also apply to bicycles .. especially if with child seat, panniers, baskets :wink: Laws of physics, weight und loading does apply just as much here - especially if more of us use bicycles for shopping trips und touring holidays :wink:

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