Safe Speed Forums

er, yeah.

http://www.police-forum.com

http://www.policeoracle.com

http://www.policespecials.com

http://www.ukpoliceonline.co.uk

http://www.police999.com

http://www.200weeks.police999.com

http://www.police-information.co.uk/Docs/discussionforum


http://www.ukpoliceforum.co.uk


Then you've got the Police Bloggs (of which there are about 100)

http://www.coppersblog.blogspot.com

http://www.inspectorgadget.wordpress.com

http://www.police-officer.blog.co.uk

are the big ones.


As for “loads of PCSO sites” there are only two for 16,000 PCSOs nationally

www.pcsoforum.co.uk

www.national-pcsos.co.uk

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That two too many in my book !!!



No PCSO ing today Z ?

Or you on alate...but remember you have to back in the nick by 10 PM dont want you getting into trouble do we ????

Are we likely to see PCSO Sergeants, and inspector Blueys in the near future ?

Could somebody, for the sake of sanity, please draw this pathetic pissing contest to a close

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

You wont be saying that when they trash your licence will you... ???

Enough

I've temporarily locked this thread to prevent an escalation.

Andy. Please refrain from personal attacks.

The difference was Bi Si argued that such an Act existed, I made a cut and paste/ edit error when transfering Police Act 2002 and Socpa '05 from a word document to my post



In most modern Custody Suites, the cop stands with the prisoner in front of the custody Sgt's 'desk', gives the reasons for arrest the Sgt asks if the reason for detention is understood. The prisoner is then in the charge of the custody Sgt. I think that could be described as a 'handover'.



The search is usually carried out by a Custody Assistant (I don't know the official title) i.e. Civilian worker, in front of the Custody Sgt. were the belongings are 'bagged', the Custody assistant takes the Fingerprints, Photo and DNA sample.



It is very rare the Arresting Officer conducts the interview.


The Custody Sgt. as described above.



Sometimes the Arresting Officer (AO) sometimes other officers are assigned, sometimes both depending on how many witnesses there are, How can the AO be in 2 places at once, in the 'station' and out interviewing witnesses.



Again usually the Custody Sgt. on his own decision, or during 'office hours' after consultation with the on site CPS representative ( they have one at each Custody Suite or in the associated station). After office hours there is a 'CPS Direct' telephone line for queries as to correct Charging.



Blah Blah Blah
This would be a separate new offence, and by definition would have to take place sometime after Charge and Bail, and could be dealt with by any Police Officer



After the 'handover' into Custody, the Cop could get a cup of tea and dictate his statement, the reasons for Arrest were accepted by the Sgt, the statement is usually typed up prior to the interview, as this generally is the basis of the interview/questioning. The AO could then hand his dictated statement to the typist, he could then go and interview the other witnesses, or nick some more Bad boys and Girls.
IIRC the cost per hour of a Proper Police Officer is in excess of £80 per hour, so that 1 hour saved would probably account for the typists wages for the best part of a shift. Economics and efficiency and Value for Money.



With my system depending how many cups of tea, and how long it took to dictate the Statement, he could be back on the 'beat' in an hour or so, certainly less than 5 or 6 hrs, again economic efficiency.



When did the AO transubstatiate into the OIC (I presume this is Officer in Charge). The Custody Sgt. must Charge or release the Prisoner, the AO will often be off duty by this stage.




He could check for errors and/or sign, during the shift changeover if he was going 'off duty' or he could be called back to the Custody Suite prior to interview.



As explained above it is often other officers (often detectives) who interview prisoners, and the Custody Sgt. Charges and Bails.



I am suggesting, Police Constables carry out the duties they always have, in accordance with their Attestation, and discretion. The Police are getting more skilled day by day (and I'm glad it's so), in line with the technology they have at their disposal.

What I am stating not suggesting is, The whole Police Sevice is being de-skilled and Public confidence eroded by the use of PSCO's.



It could be simpler and hence more efficient and economically sound.



Blah blah blah

If there is no need for arrest there has been no crime, hence there are no victims or witnesses or support needed, and if there is no need for arrest authorities should leave people to lead their lives as they see fit within the law.


I get the feeling from the misinformation in your post that the reason you want PACE abolished is because you do not understand it.

fatboytim

With the odd exception you’re almost completely wrong Tim.

It’s nothing like the Bill. I know this because I spend most days in Custody for a proportion of my day.

The search is NEVER carried out by the Custody Sgt. It is the responsibility of the arresting officer.

what? Unless it’s an extremely serious offence ‘murder’, ‘rape’ etc, then the arresting officer ALWAYS conducts the interview, after all, he knows what went on.

The arresting officer always takes witness statements, unless he has a PC colleague who is free and there are ten witnesses or something, which would take another PC off the street.

good god, what force is this, do you mean DACS or CRIB? You may have gotten your information from one particular force, this doesn’t mean it’s that way nationwide.

A PCs on £80 per hour? Really? My best mate (who is a PC) is on £1450 per month take home, I’m on £1400 PM. What force is it that pays their PCs £80 Per hour, I’ll let him know and he’ll sell up and move.

where I work it takes 25 minutes to drive to custody alone. Do the maths. Make arrest, call for a van, wait for that to arrive, drive to custody, do relevant searches, statements, handover, crime incident, personal statement, drive back to beat area to go back on patrol. Doesn’t add up.

Detectives don’t interview, they don’t work past 4pm! They would only get involved if it were a murder, rape or something of that sort. The vast majority of prisoners are shoplifters or public order offenders.

Again, it’s nothing like the Bill.




So police should only ever deal with incidents that will defiantly require an arrest then?

Some examples of when incidents will occur and (under your control) you wouldn’t send a police representative.


1) Minor RTC, traffic control.
2) Vehicle obstruction causing traffic jams (traffic wardens have no powers to deal with obstruction, so cant call them.
3) Kids hanging around outside Mrs Miggins house, being a nuisance
4) Underage kids having a beer outside your house.
5) Rowdy people in your street at 3am.
6) Crowd control at football matches, protests, demos, carnivals etc.
7) Victim support after burglaries, crime prevention etc.
8) Move on rough sleepers
9) Street drinkers
10) Licencing checks, pubs, bars, resturants, offies.
11) Residents meetings, tennants association meetings

The list goes on and on. I feel sorry for anyone who had to live in an area where you decided what calls police attended. People pay their tax so that they CAN call the police and they DO get a response, not for some call-taker to say “sorry, youths being loud, doesn’t require a Police officer, you’ll have to put up with them outside your house till 5am till they fancy leaving, we only deal with arrests thanks”.




But that’s what YOU ARE suggesting SHOULD be done. You have said the civilians could do all the paperwork, reports etc and the Cop just makes the arrest, like a transport officer or something, he shouldn’t even do the interview you’ve suggested, surely that IS de-skilling the Police Officers?


Z

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I said the search was carried out by a custody assistant in front of the Custody Sgt.

I was not, and have never been interviewed by the arresting officer.

According to the statements in my case they were not taken by the arresting officer.

This was a Metropolitan Police Force, Country Bumpkin Forces may be different.

I did not say a Police Officer earns £80 ph, but that having a Police Officer costs about this amount including overheads, ask your local football club what they pay for police attendance at matches.

Your timings are obviously for a country Bumpkin Force.

Your examples can be dealt by the police, with their full range of powers and discretion, Your item 10, can only be carried out with a Constable present IIRC.


My description comes from my 1st hand experience, of arrest , search, being fingerprinted, photographed, having my DNA sample taken, being held in the cells, interviewed, then charged and bailed.



I can now agree with HonestAndys description of you that gained him a final warning.

I have never been found guilty of any offence, but have been thru the system a couple of times, each leading to upheld complaints to the PCA and currently have an IPPC Compliant in progress.

As your posts are way less that factually correct, a constructive discussion is impossible with you.

I suggest you get back under your bridge, and go and read Butterworths.


To the Mods,

As Paul and probably Smeggy, know of my recent experiences, as described on another forum, could this troll called 'z' be banned, for posting mis-information?

fatboytim

Tim I’m afraid my previous post is accurate, it happens. You may well have been interview by another officer (the point is, its still a PC, thus taking them off the street) the same point stands, it takes a police officer to conduct your interview.

This is not usually the procedure, as my quote below will show. I take it you’ve only been arrested once?

Re Licencing-
You do NOT need to be a PC to do a licence check on an off-licence or bar for that matter, you NEED the power of entry ONLY if they are refusing you entry, which rarely happens (the power of a constable gives you that right of entry).

My examples (you’ve stated don’t require police?) None necessarily require an arrest, so are you saying you would now send police to them even though they don’t require an arrest?

The idea that 'all you have to do is arrest them, give a quick personal statement and then hand them over. Job done, back out on the beat'

Er, yeah. Here is an extract (put perfectly) by PC David Copperfield ‘Wasting Police Time’.



That is a very good example of the process. PC Copperfield (which isn’t his real name) has actually missed out a couple of enquiries namely looking for CCTV from the police and shops/business premises, then viewing the footage (after you can find a member of staff that remembers how to us it) then if it has evidential value, seizing it (which requires a seizure statement and exhibit / producing statement) this takes about 1-2 hours. Needs to be done that day really, as some premises only keep footage stored for a few days.

Did you watch Panorama the other week, the policeman who wrote the above was on it, saying what I’ve just said.


Where have I lied Tim? That is a personal attack, let’s remain civil and debate the facts.

edited in to save double posting.....................................

AO and OIC in my force need to be the same person, unless we have multiple prisoners by different officers, then the most suitable (usually decided by the Sgt) will become the overall OIC and the Officer whom takes the responsibility for that crime.

This may be different in other forces.

OIC = Officer In the Case (though it is often mistaken for Officer In Charge I accept)

Being arrested a couple of times will no doubt give you an indication of the type of work we do (and I say ‘we’ because I am a part of the ‘Police Service’), even attending court a few times to give evidence, or even represent a few people for driving offences will of course help, but until you work for a Police Service, do the copious amounts of paperwork, see the stress these fine officers go through and the amount of cr*p they have to put up with, both in and out of the office and court. Perhaps then it will be a little clearer for you of how much of a state the police service is in and how they desperately need change, in whatever form (hence my argument FOR PCSOs)

The point, which for some reason we keep stepping over when we fly off topic, is that, you feel the Police are being de-skilled and the public confidence eroded because of the use of PCSOs/civilians in ‘police work’.

But then you go on to say the PCSOs/civilians should be doing MORE of the administrative bits, the criming, the reports, interviewing etc, all the skilled bits and pieces that take up the Officers time.

If that were to happen then the Police Officer would have little, if any skills, as they would just be like a walking Prisoner Transport Officer. They arrive, make a judgment if someone needed arresting, arrest and transport to custody, where loads of civilians take over and the Officer can get back out there, after a Dictaphone entry of the circumstances, which he passes over to a civilian and the civilian writes it all up and the Officer comes back before the end of his/her shift, and signs it.

Your words.

So what was your point again? Do you or do you not want to de-skill Officers?

Get rid of PACE and HRA and most of the paperwork would disappear, leaving no need for all these civilians in the first place.

_________________

Hi Tim.

At this time I cannot take any action. There is no established rule against the posting of misinformation but we can act if doing so borders on trolling; however, I don’t detect any evidence of disingenuous behaviour here. Please note, I'm not saying you are wrong. I’m not an expert in these matters, although I only speak for myself; others might know different. I do not know which party is correct and I won’t know without delving deeply into the matter; I hope you can understand why I won’t do that. I appreciate this could be frustrating for both you and Z.

My advice to both parties is to say what you disagree with and why and leave it at that. If we’re fortunate, some of the serving police officers on this forum may shed further light.

Steve

Smeggy,
'Nuff said'

fatboytim

I keep hearing this name TROLL or TROLLING..

What does it mean ????

Someone called me a Troll ( A PCSO ..I think ! ) . .. are they them little ugly dolls with long hair ????


Thanks

Honestandy ( FINAL WARNING)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

I understand the troll thing now....

Thanks

Honestandy (FINAL WARNING)

Thanks Steve, I think that’s fair.

Andy, so what happened with the complaint to the PCSOs boss, did they say it is regular practice to use PCSOs for these type of duties? I wouldn’t think it was really what they should be doing, perhaps not even within their remit.

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The Chief Inspector, as stated made a stereotypical reply after investigating if PCSOs could do what they were doing that day...trying to use a laser gun !

He took some time to reply he had to find out the limit of PCSO power,

Should have asked him to phone you Z old chap..cos you know dont you..better than him

The Traffic and community PCSO (Note TRAFFIC)
can apparently issue FPNs and carryout some Traffic sort of penalties/duties.. he basically stated they were similar to glorified Traffic Wardens formally employed by Merseyside Police...


Financially and time wise...not worth hassle going to court... !!

But my question to them was ... why are your PCSOs ..set up by the Home Office engaged in this type of work .. no real answer and he quoted some stuff that looked like it came from a PCSO recritment book from the Home Office.

Were you not set up to SUPPORT communities ????

So what the hell they standing on street corners doing laser gun ???

SHE wasnt speeding...and they were wrong. !!!!!

Look we both have clean licences and no criminal convictions right.. if we were serial speeding road hogs would the POLICE not have noticed us by now... I drive loads, including IRV..NO speeding, no tickets....

She has NO CONVICTIONS EVER TILL the bluecap PCSOs who were not experienced cocked up the reading and all of the sudden she is the maddest on the roads since that PC who did 159 MPH in his Vectra in the middle of the night ...cos he wanted to see how fast the thing would go !!!!

Is this justice..another of my original points.. many would agree NOT

Probably not you though...

So our meeting (the first experience of Bluecap !! ) was not a good one... and further study of this body of people leads me to conclude that they are a waste of time , energy, and all that I have written here is true.

The pies, halloween night, not helping people in distress they are all true !!!!!!! hence my dislike for Blueys

Andy I understand how you must feel. I have to agree with you here, I don’t think PCSOs should be engaged in traffic calming measures.

Although I can see the argument for these type of duties, on the odd occasions, especially if it appears to be a big problem for the locals. It certainly isn’t something that PCSOs should be doing regularly. I can see the argument that its not supporting the community in the natural sense.

I don’t think it’s fair to stereotype though Andy. You say have IRV, what’s that?

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Z,

This is my entire point ...

There may be issues with the locals with regard to speed..I cannot say

That being the case, I feel it would be appropriate that the police provide Traffic Officers to engage in stopping offenders, with their specific expertise, and properly calibrated speed measuring device.

If they feel the need to report people fine and three points .. I suppose they are the experts ..okay.

To be stopped by two PCSOs and a beat PC in the circumstances described was a farce. all I describe here is true.. running into the road, etc etc. I did point this out in my letter to them.

Would you routinely send CID to traffic accidents ?? NO !

The PCSOs and WPC were not cut out for this task..was a joke .. that day and HA did tell them !

So I feel that there has been an injustice.

So I came here for advice but my anger may have taken over a bit...

We are law abiding citizens and even for that little bit (Alleged) excess speed does it warrant upsetting an honest endorsement accident free driver of 20 years who admired and respected the police ..well you work that one out.. a warning would have sufficed .. not that one was even due ..

Do you comprehend the perception people get about you ..

and the PCSOs .. well perhaps they should stick to supporting communities..

dealing with minor stuff, youths causing, etc etc.. and leave specialist tasks to the people who perhaps specialise in that specific field...

they were intended ( I use the word intended) to be the eyes and ears of the police ..but we never see them (Thankfully) except on mischief night.

Locally they have no rapport in this community.. I do see them doing people parking outside Co OP (double yellows) ..me I steer well clear...park in next street HA does

oh and nearly forgot lunch time PCSOs in group Sayers pie shop

Z,

I have met, dined with and spoke at length to some of the most famous people to have lived, and explored this world and others, and through my own career and life experience feel entitled to say a little about what is what...

This experience and the others described here do not look good on the PCSO CV.. not helping distressed kids, laser reading (wrong)so while this is in the press your quest for respect if that is what we will call it could be a long one....

IRV = Instant Response Vehicle) Certificated...

Respect is a strange thing .. our boss in work commands respect., he is usually pleasant, treats people the same, and he is the boss.. we do not always like it when the boss shouts, .. does things we do not like or agree with ..but he has our respect .. my respect... so it i am not about getting my own way..does that explain something to you

We dont have to respect him, but in a way he has earned our respect and loyalty... wether we agree,like him, even his authority does not mean we have to respect him

WE RESPECT OF HIM cos of his fairness, actions and what he stands for ....

try running that one past your mates

Honestandy (Member) and (FINAL WARNING)

I think this is an extremely important issue and one I agree with Andy.

That’s why I make sure my boots are polished, my shirt and trousers have the relevant creases and why I always smile and say good morning to everyone I see.
It’s why I listen to what the residents and traders within my community say, and why I do my best to support that with the powers I have.
I would have jumped in and tried to look for the child (even if I knew he was already dead and there was no chance of saving him) if nothing eles, to look like we were trying, the perception issue. Its why Doctors will try and resus people who are clearly dead, to offer the relatives some kind of closure “they did all they could”.

But then the same paper (the Daily ‘Hate’ Mail) then went on to post a positive story where PCSOs DID save someone, it just goes to show we’re not all the same.

I agree traffic duties should be left to specially trained and experienced Traffic Officers, not PCSOs or beat PCs.

We should stick to what we’re good at. I do feel that you have an unhealthy attitude towards PCSOs though, even though you’ve had had little interaction with them.
By the way, I don’t eat pies.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7130028.stm

Surely not... not saying who was driving the car !!

Perverting the course of justice ..???

They have a cheek.. 3 points and fine for us..

These people drive like maniacs ... !!!

and you have the cheek to fine my wife ..and 3 points cos of some PCSOs !! for alleged 8 MPH !!! you are a joke !!!

Anyone not identifying the driver was should be considered dishonest and SACKED !!

Ow sorry !! you are the law and above the law.. no wonder those PCSOs carry on the way they do... the REAL police ..well are you any better !!!!!!


Justice......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... peed27.xml

I should prosecute you for harrasement and stress of my poor wife... !!

what gives you the right to do all this while ..we get done for nothing

for alleged 8 MPH over the limit..shame on you !!!!!

Dual standards !!!! JUSTICE DONT MAKE ME LAUGH !!!!!!!!!!

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus