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 Post subject: Changing The Clocks
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 14:54 
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Something I've never been able to get my head round...

Why do we change the clocks at all (apart from an historical quirk)?

Why don't we just stick to GMT?

Does it really make any difference?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 14:56 
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Its to ensure that you go to work in the dark, and come home from work in the dark, and thus will be more appreciative when summer rolls around next year. :P


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 15:55 
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I get confused when organizing telemeetings with European colleagues. They say "phone at 10am (GMT+1)". So I think "I am already on GMT+1 as it's the Summer so I'll phone at 10am" but I miss the call as they mean "GMT+1 = European Time including Summertime adjustments"

Very confusing. By the way, why doesn't this board automatically adjust posting times?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 17:48 
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malcolmw wrote:
I get confused when organizing telemeetings with European colleagues. They say "phone at 10am (GMT+1)". So I think "I am already on GMT+1 as it's the Summer so I'll phone at 10am" but I miss the call as they mean "GMT+1 = European Time including Summertime adjustments"

Very confusing. By the way, why doesn't this board automatically adjust posting times?

Because quite sensibly given our geographic dispersment, it allows YOU to set YOUR time zone in your profile - that done, then it does the rest for you!

I agree about the times - my wife is flying back from Paris today, and didn't know whether they had to catch the flight an hour early or not.
Asking the French if their hour is going back is a bit like asking if they are being invaded - they are mostly not sure, but it's possible!!
As it happened, the airline was beset with passengers who failed to turn up on time, so they are running 40 minutes late because of the confusion!

I'd like to see CET ALL year round and have done with it.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 20:17 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
Because quite sensibly given our geographic dispersment, it allows YOU to set YOUR time zone in your profile - that done, then it does the rest for you!

I understand the benefit of setting your own timezone location Ernest but shouldn't it automatically do BST/GMT transition (or as you call it "do the rest for you")?

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 Post subject: Re: Changing The Clocks
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 20:24 
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FB2000 wrote:
Something I've never been able to get my head round...

Why do we change the clocks at all (apart from an historical quirk)?

Why don't we just stick to GMT?

Does it really make any difference?


To make most of daylight hours. Originally the Greenwich Longitude was supposed to have run through Paris and not London.

But even so.. in winter so how we change .. we have less daylight hours. Recently .. we get up in the dark. Up until shortest days we have some morning daylight but dusk falling that bit earlier. After 21 December we get 2 mins more daylight per day until March when we maximise the day by adjusting to make more use of the long summery evenings - which would still be long because that's how our planet works in its spinning orbit around the sun. Man may make the earth move with nuclear explosions and some otehr "friskiness"
:lol: .. but he cannot actually make the earth actually move its orbit :wink: thought the 2004 tsumami allegedly came pretty close.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 20:56 
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malcolmw wrote:
I understand the benefit of setting your own timezone location Ernest but shouldn't it automatically do BST/GMT transition (or as you call it "do the rest for you")?


Remember that summer/wintertime changeovers take place on different days in different countries, and the forum software doesn't know whereabouts we all are.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing The Clocks
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 21:08 
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FB2000 wrote:
Something I've never been able to get my head round...

Why do we change the clocks at all (apart from an historical quirk)?

Why don't we just stick to GMT?

Does it really make any difference?


GMT in the summer would mean a lot of daylight is wasted very early in the morning. It's better to take an hour of that for the evening instead.

Unfortunately, keeping BST through the winter would mean it gets light rather late in the morning, so the hour has to go back.

Whether it's worth doing this is a judgement call, but IMO it's a good compromise.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 14:14 
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GMT in the summer would mean a lot of daylight is wasted very early in the morning. It's better to take an hour of that for the evening instead.


We don't need to change the clocks though. We could just get up earlier and go to bed earlier and achieve the same result, so why do we change the clocks?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 14:27 
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Twister wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
I understand the benefit of setting your own timezone location Ernest but shouldn't it automatically do BST/GMT transition (or as you call it "do the rest for you")?


Remember that summer/wintertime changeovers take place on different days in different countries, and the forum software doesn't know whereabouts we all are.


What he said!! :)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 23:13 
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semitone wrote:
Quote:
GMT in the summer would mean a lot of daylight is wasted very early in the morning. It's better to take an hour of that for the evening instead.


We don't need to change the clocks though. We could just get up earlier and go to bed earlier and achieve the same result, so why do we change the clocks?


Because we need to organise our days by clocks. :wink: Am Swiss.. Prissy Swissy :lol: I programmed to like clocks.. punctuality :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Changing The Clocks
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 23:25 
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Zamzara wrote:
FB2000 wrote:
Something I've never been able to get my head round...

Why do we change the clocks at all (apart from an historical quirk)?

Why don't we just stick to GMT?

Does it really make any difference?


GMT in the summer would mean a lot of daylight is wasted very early in the morning. It's better to take an hour of that for the evening instead.

Unfortunately, keeping BST through the winter would mean it gets light rather late in the morning, so the hour has to go back.

Whether it's worth doing this is a judgement call, but IMO it's a good compromise.


:yesyes:


Find it easier to get up und go when daylight. If dark.. I want to curl up .. turn over und purr back off to sleep again.

I recall Europe indulging in big experiment. I younger than Mad Doc but seem to recall going to Kindergarten in the dark. Cannot ever recall playing out after school either as DARK. Do not then see benefit of BST throughout, Think we make best of bad situation by doing as all past generations did, :wink:

I admit to seeing muppets with no lights tonight,. Cyclist collide with pedestrians on dark un-marked rural crossing as it go dark. Pedestrians in black, No one injured but cyclist admitted that he now see logic in pale coloured scarf or armband und LIGHTS on bike.


I rather have some daylight than none at all here. I think tradition has right here. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 23:31 
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Well, Brake are against it, so it must be a good idea.

They are in favour of the UK going on to European Central Time. Even though we are not IN Central Europe. :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 02:19 
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WildCat wrote:
semitone wrote:
Quote:
GMT in the summer would mean a lot of daylight is wasted very early in the morning. It's better to take an hour of that for the evening instead.


We don't need to change the clocks though. We could just get up earlier and go to bed earlier and achieve the same result, so why do we change the clocks?


Because we need to organise our days by clocks. :wink: Am Swiss.. Prissy Swissy :lol: I programmed to like clocks.. punctuality :lol:

Some of us just have to keep on working until the job is done, so the figure on the clock is not so important! :wink:
Number two son is very keen on knowing the time - but hates disruption to routine like changing the clock! :shock:

Anyone else ever work nights at change over time of year? If you havent, you probably dont understand what a dreadful chore it really is!!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 03:25 
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This is an interesting question....

First introduced here in May 1916 after the Germans did it to increase "War production" during the hours of light, after a British idea by a man whose name I forget but I think it began with "W"....sorry!
:roll:

During the 60's, a second "experiment" was tried..... GMT +2hrs!

Now then...............The results of THIS "experiment" was hidden away in secret by HM Gov. for...........100yrs! (it was SO amazing it seems) Yes folks........around 2060+-ish you may find out if you're lucky.


I just think that it's strange, that with the "pressure" being on now to reduce COSTS!..............Fuel, Wages, Working Hours, Etc......

Guess what comes up?...........YEP!


GMT +1

and Later maybe.......GMT +2?

I just wonder what it was that this "experiment" found out, that they want to persuade us is a "good idea" for us now?


Don't sleep in for TOO long, you may miss what it is that they're trying to do to you.......


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 08:48 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
WildCat wrote:
semitone wrote:
Quote:
GMT in the summer would mean a lot of daylight is wasted very early in the morning. It's better to take an hour of that for the evening instead.


We don't need to change the clocks though. We could just get up earlier and go to bed earlier and achieve the same result, so why do we change the clocks?


Because we need to organise our days by clocks. :wink: Am Swiss.. Prissy Swissy :lol: I programmed to like clocks.. punctuality :lol:

Some of us just have to keep on working until the job is done, so the figure on the clock is not so important! :wink:
Number two son is very keen on knowing the time - but hates disruption to routine like changing the clock! :shock:


We have one young foster who also not fond of anything which disrupt his routine at moment. Nice boy, He tend to call spades spades too. :lol: But he still quite a young gentleman too.


He then got a bit cross with us because we'd forgotten to alter one of our clocks too. :lol: He gave me a telling off over "not doing job properly" similar to one I used to get from my own Papa as small child. :lol:

(At time my own Papa was teaching me how to tinker with a car und I had not tightened something up properly when he checked it. :yikes: It was the screen wash as I recall .. I had not fastened the clasp flush to fit. . :banghead:)


Quote:
Anyone else ever work nights at change over time of year? If you havent, you probably dont understand what a dreadful chore it really is!!


:yesyes: Once we had party to have benefit of longer time to :jester: party.

Another time though .. was on duty when training. I first train in medicine before I move to research (which accident bring earlier than originally planned.) . This meant I had longer hour to work on that shift. :roll: (Europe move its hour just the same :wink: It still have the same number of daylight hours though, It case of geography .. place on the planet. :wink: )

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 00:23 
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If you think it's complicated remembering the adjustments here, just try Indiana!

Of course, the contiguous U.S. already has four time zones, with added complications like most states using daylight savings but Arizona staying on standard time all year round. But Indiana poses special difficulties, being not only a state which is split between the Eastern and Central time zones, but also one where some parts of the state adopt daylight savings in summer and other parts don't. So at some times of the year two adjoining counties can be the same time, while at other times they are an hour different.

Complex enough? Prior to the Uniform Time Act of 1966 or thereabouts there were no fixed nationwide dates for the clock changes. Different states and even different counties within a state could put the clocks forward and back on different dates.

Makes the U.K. with its single time zone seem quite simple, doesn't it?

:lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 03:06 
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We could get rid of this nonsense if we just all leave our clocks on UTC this summer and rather than doing something at, say, 9:00 BST doing it at 8:00 UTC.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 09:16 
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Ziltro wrote:
We could get rid of this nonsense if we just all leave our clocks on UTC this summer and rather than doing something at, say, 9:00 BST doing it at 8:00 UTC.

From The Sunday Times October 21, 2007
Quote:
Please set your clock to ‘British green time’

Jonathan Leake and Chris Gourlay

TURNING the clocks back each winter causes a surge in Britain’s greenhouse gas emissions and adds millions of pounds to power bills, according to a new study by Cambridge University engineers.

They found that darker evenings cause domestic consumers to use an extra 5% electricity, generating millions of tons of carbon dioxide (CO2 The report will be published this week, anticipating next weekend’s turning of the clocks back an hour from British Summer Time (BST) to Greenwich Mean Time (GMT).

It estimates that remaining on BST all year – and perhaps renaming it Energy Saving Time – could also prevent 104 deaths and 450 serious injuries on the roads each year by decreasing the amount of driving in the dark. The National Health Service would save £200m a year in treating injuries associated with daytime darkness.

Elizabeth Garnsey, author of the report and a reader in engineering and business at Cambridge’s Institute for Manufacturing, said: “Our current time policy costs us dearly in bills and emissions. CO2 “Setting the clocks back to GMT is an institutional practice so well entrenched it is exempt from evidence-based policy making. No systematic evidence has been produced and no research commissioned in support of the government’s position.”

Garnsey’s report adds a new twist to an argument that has lasted more than a century.

It has long been said that Britain would benefit economically from syn-chronising clocks with its European neighbours and that people would prefer to have more daylight in the afternoon and evening during the winter. However, such moves have been stymied by concerns over the impact on Scotland, where moving the clocks forward an hour would leave northern areas in darkness until about 9am.

The years 1968-71 saw an experiment in which Britain brought the clocks forward by an hour, but MPs voted to abandon it after anecdotal evidence of morning road accidents involving schoolchildren and disruption to dairy farmers and construction, delivery and postal workers.

Garnsey’s report says such anecdotes were misleading and were not backed by any formal attempt to gather evidence. Her new finding – that putting the clocks back generates an extra surge in energy demand, carbon emissions and road accidents – is likely to reopen the debate.

A significant factor in the energy surge is that, under GMT, around 35% of the population are asleep when the sun rises in winter and so make no use of the extra daylight. Then, because they arrive home from school or work in cold and darkness, they use more lighting and heating, causing a surge in demand, especially between 4pm and 6pm.

The costs and emissions are amplified because Britain can only meet these daily surges by switching on less efficient back-up generating plants such as oil-fired power stations. Such plants can take hours to heat up and cool down, pushing the costs and emissions of such power even higher.
Garnsey did not look at the impact on demand for gas consumption but believes it would show similar trends.

The energy-saving benefits of keeping clocks forward an hour were clear to wartime politicians. British Summer Time, also known as GMT+1, was created in 1916 to save coal. During the second world war, Britain used GMT+1 during the winter and GMT+2 in summer, again to reduce fuel consumption.

Britain might have moved permanently to such a regime in 1971 but MPs voted against after an emotive debate involving claims that putting the clocks forward had caused an increase in winter morning road accidents to schoolchildren. What they were not told was that this was more than offset by the much greater fall in accidents in the evenings.

Garnsey calculates that the 1971 decision has caused an extra 46m tons of CO2 to be released since then.

There are signs that senior politicians are ready for a rethink. A spokesman for Pat McFadden, the employment minister who also has responsibility for timekeeping, said he was reading the report “with interest”.

Tim Yeo, Tory chairman of the environmental audit select committee, who earlier this year tried to use a private member’s bill to bring the clocks forward by an hour in both winter and summer for a three-year experimental period, said: “The environ-mental case for action is unanswerable.”

There is, however, likely to be powerful resistance to any change from Scotland. Alex Salmond, the first minister, said: “The current system protects the safety of children travelling to school. Not putting the clocks back would leave Scotland in darkness until 8 or 9am.”

But Sylvia Thorne, an art teacher from Sanday in Orkney, said: “There isn’t much strength of opinion about it up here. The Scottish weather is so miserable in winter that it would make little difference.”


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 13:20 
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Ziltro wrote:
We could get rid of this nonsense if we just all leave our clocks on UTC this summer and rather than doing something at, say, 9:00 BST doing it at 8:00 UTC.


:clap:

My watch does not get adjusted to BST in summer.

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