Safe Speed Forums

It's become so very easy to look at young drivers as the group to be at most risk of being involved in an accident.
Of course, few could argue that age and immaturity could, in the wrong circumstances, result in some foolish driving. But is it right to always say that this is the cause of the high rate at which young drivers are involved in accidents ?
We always assume it is, and then decide that self-discipline is a problem.

But who has done thorough research of this and managed to separate the young driver accident causes into the two root causes, which are a) immaturity and iresponsibility, and b) new driver syndrome.

Whenever I hear about someone passing their test and then going off to buy a car I can't help but feel that a mistake gets made by anyone who buys an expensive or new car. Statistically you are likely to have an accident wihtin a couple of years of passing your test whatever age you are. The fact that more of those people involved in accidents are young drivers could just as easily be a reflection of the number of young drivers who pass their tests and are therefore 'due' an accident.

I would like to see some thorough research done in this area, because everyone I know who passed their test within the past ten years all had an accident or a very near miss within 2 years. Most have not had an accident since then.

I feel it is wrong to tar all young drivers with the brush of iresponsibility when perhaps the main thing which they have got going against them is not their age but a dose f new driver syndrome.

You cannot know what is likely to happen on the roads around you until you have driven on them for some years, and when you have just passed the test you have been told that everybody else is an idiot and because you have passed you must be good. This is something which I believe only leaves you when you have had a bump or two.

Any new driver reading this, don't worry

Chris

I don't think its about maturity necessarily, I would put it down to attitude and experience, and the two are often intertwined.

I would put it down to the immortality factor.
The younger you are the less likely you are to perceive that life has both a start and end.
After the first accident or event your mind is sharply focused on the end part.....

Inexperience seems to be the largest factor.

I looked at insurance premiums for 30 year old new drivers and they are sky high too.

From the policy perspective, the learning process needs a revamp to introduce new drivers to the safety skills that they will have to depend upon:

- managing distraction / concentration
- learning observation and visual scan
- hazard recognition and prioritisation
- hazard response
- the nature of the responsibility
- beliefs and attitudes

And we need to:

- paint a driving test pass as 'the first rung' of a driving career (at present a driving test pass gives the impression that they have proved that they have all the skills that they will ever need.)

- quit immediately with the false and oversimplified safety messages

- introduce pre-drivers (i.e. school kids) to the genuine road safety concepts (beliefs, attitudes, care and consideration, responsibility, skills)

- make road safety interesting and not onerous and unpleasant

That little lot would soon get everything moving in the right direction again.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It's a double whammy in some respects. We've all done daft things as we've been coming up through adolescence to early 20s. Most of within reason

But there are the older learners - many final year graduates or "first years earner" learners as this when they can actually afford the lessons. Unfortunately, the driving test pass seems to held in such high esteem that for too many - this pass becomes the end result and "nothing more to learn" when as Paul rightly points out .. the opposite: it's just the start of gaining valuable experience and being prepared to learn from each drive each time. I think we must really get this attitude into the learners right from the start . and encourage them to evaluate their drives properly and honestly all the time.




Germany and France? You cannot just go out and buy that stealth Merc as driven by Turbo Rolf. They do restrict new drivers' choice of engine bhp/ to some extent. Impossible to be insured for these fast cars in those countries. Germany will not allow a probationer to take out the insurance surcharge to drive above 80 mph on the derestricted A/bahn either. (German drivers pay extra insurance to cover for spirited drives. If they crash at high speed without this cover - then they would be ininsured..)

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Not just learners, everybody.

I think we should encourage all drivers to become engaged in improving their driving in order to be able to reduce the 'problems' we currently may have with 'learners', 'speeding', 'red-light jumping' and the rest.

Within that, the laws themselves should encourage respect and compliance as opposed to being used indiscriminately as a fix-all solution.
Yes breaking the law is wrong but wrongfully used laws really don’t help.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

This caused my thoughts to skew-off for a moment, and it struck me that this could also be a perfect medium for engaging kids in what could otherwise be a dull and preachy subject: How to be a decent human being and member of society.

It seems that a decent proportion of kids and young adults today have grown up with seriously misaligned social values, and many seem utterly incapable of an ounce of empathy. I know that some schools have gone down the route of 'Citizenship' or 'Moral Values' lessons, but I can just imagine them as a stream of dull rhetoric about that you 'must not do' (especially under the current administration).

Almost every kid can't wait to start driving. Although there may be less desirable motivations as well, the freedom it offers to a young adult is extremely desirable at the point in their lives when they are working on becoming an individual. To be able to teach them consideration for others, responsibility to others, and instil in them less-selfish and more team-oriented values as part of a subject that must be passed as the first step to driving freedom could be an invaluable opportunity.

Ja Icandoit.. we agree. It should be all drivers. But Ted ist thinking of inducing this at earliest learning curve.

We have lot of kids in this household as you know. We proud that eldest three drive cars. We proud that they chose .. of own free will .. to take on Pass Plus within 6 month of passing L test und then gaining some experience before IAM. William (eldest) has this und now a RoSPA/RoDA. He set the standard und his siblings (our twins) want to equal his standard. But it come across here as sibling rivalry. Maybe that a part of this. But our oldest kittens? They know what damage a car crash can do. They grew up in the non-fault fall-out (my much known history) after all. They more keen on learning as much as possible. We did teach to evaluate very critically each drive.. to be brutally honest as to what they can do better next time. After all.. young Lewis Hamilton und his pals have to do this after each race. It called "being professional"

But how the hell do we get this across to all new drivers here.

_________________
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Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
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I would say it is a combination of age and experience. A new driver of 30 will be less of a risk than a new driver of 17 or 18.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Robin.. I know. Our kittens could not wait to drive. Our younger ones also looking forward to acquiring this skill.

We have always taught or tried to teach manners/courtesy/consideration/decency etc. We can only hope we get this right each time too.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

True.. At older age .. you have met the commitments of real world perhaps und sown some wild seeds.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Absolutely. But I do believe that the lion's share is inexperience.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

From a totally unscientific standpoint, I would actually say that around two-thirds is age.

I am open-minded, but I wonder what the insurers would honestly say?

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I'm pretty sure that I know it's at least two thirds inexperience. But I can't answer the 'how do I know?' question adequately. It's an opinion formed by a lot of reading...

We should be able to form a proper estimate from an insurance premium survey. Let me consider how to frame the questions / examples, and I'll contact my friendly broker on Monday. Any suggestions or advice about asking the questions would be welcome.

What a shame that there are no experienced 17 year olds for a comparison set!

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Er....Lewis Hamilton?




(sorry Paul) I said that though for one reason. That it's NOT only the inexperience, but the "attitude" that counts.

When you're young, if someone has the nerve to overtake you, you see RED! When you're older, you think "so what" or depending on the circumstances, .. "Prat! Catch you up at the next traffic lights" if you're still alive.

I believe that even Lewis fell foul of this recently.............(the impetuosity of youth), despite his obvious experience he lost the F1 Championship.

On the road of course, it COULD have been his life.....

I'm thinking of asking for:

17 year old, just passed test
21 year old, just passed test
21 year old, 3 years experience
30 year old, just passed test
30 year old, 3 years experience
30 year old, 6 years experience
30 year old, 9 years experience
30 year old, 12 years experience

I thought I could get an 'age slope' and an 'experience slope' out of those sorts of questions. But...

The 'x factor' that will make this approach fail to reveal a proper result is accident history. For example, our 30 year old, just passed test has no accident history (neither good nor bad). But our 30 year old, 6 years experience is 'knowable' - he either has a good accident history or he doesn't. If we assume 'no crashes' we're introdcing a large bias towards successful drivers. Any other assumption also introduces an unknown bias.

Clearly insurance companies have to load the premiums of 'unknown' drivers, and I suspect that this goes way beyond the loading of no NCB.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Surely this has to do with learned behaviour - if your dad drove like a moron while you were growing up, then when you pass your test, you will too?

How many people reading here had an accident within three years of passing their test - a serious collision, not just a minor scrape?

And how many had a close call when they narrowly avoided having an accident?

And how many think their parents driving left a little bit to be desired?

My father has had only one accident in his life - he was 80 this year, and drove during the war from the age of 16, learning to drive in is father's lorry!
The one accident was a hoon coming the other way on a single track road in the highlands who tried to occupy the same piece of road.
In all other instances of risk, my father has been able to compensate for the other drivers shortcomings, and avoid the collision.
MY driving and attitude was shaped by spending many hours as a youngster in the car/van and picking up on PATIENCE as a means to avoiding accidents, and remaining calm when somebody else makes an error.
We even survived a brake failure in a Morris Minor Pick-up (works vehicle) down Horndean Hill on the A3, because my father knew how to weave from side to side to scrub off speed on each (gentle) turn of the wheel... and I learned that too, at the age of 10 as a result.

The attitude of many young drivers nowadays is developed in front of a TV or games console with YouTube used as a means to display their exploits to their friends. I can only see things getting worse, as THEIR children become drivers, and a further degree of parental guidance is relaxed, because dada feels it's OK to hoon around on public roads, because "he" did it when he was younger.

Insurance premiums for young drivers will not be an entirely accurate guide - a FEW bad drivers in an age group push up premiums disproportionately AND Insurers take advantage and hike premiums at the least excuse, for the benefit of the shareholders!
The discount given by some insurers to new drivers who achieve PassPlus status, is only on the FIRST years premium, and vanishes upon renewal!!! (Norwich Union!! ).

Wildy's experience with her "tribe" should indicate that parental example works. How do we get the standard up in general?
Start NOW, with ALL NEW DRIVERS, raise the bar, force better standards of TRAINING before allowing drivers free reign, THEN relax in 20 - 35 years time, when a new crop of better drivers are influencing THEIR children.

Oh, and dont just stop at driving either!!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Isn't it correct to assume that the insurers will do a lot of research into this, and that their decision will fall on the side of the argument which produces the most revenue , whichever that happens to be?

Going back to basics,
Is there still a Cycling Profiency Test?
In my test 30 yrs ago, it taught the basics of safe positioning, indication and manouvering on the roads .
passing the CPT was a badge of honour, right of passage for 10 yr olds.

And I believe CPT caught and held the youngsters attention on the subject 'safe road use'.

In my teenage years my pushbike gave me the freedom (within its range), that my car does now, if todays teens have only ever travelled in 'mum or dads taxi', we are starting later and from a lower baseline, when they get behind the wheel.

The Swiss clan, seem to have got things right (IMHO), kids who cycle, probably more for health and recreation, (than my only A to B transport) discussing/ commentating on driving, having a few plod in the extended family probably helps too.

For a while after passing my driving test I would drive with my window open, for extra sensory input as to my speed and conditions, as the car felt sterile.

My first crash was Fri 13th, downside of bridge rain and diesel on surface, slow graceful, 'kiss' to the polo in fronts bumper, just about a year from when I passed my test.

fatboytim