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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 14:00 
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El Reg wrote:
Congestion charge dodgers register Bentleys as minicabs

Owners of upmarket sets of wheels have discovered a cunning ruse to avoid paying London's congestion charge - simply register the car as a minicab.

According to the Times, Transport for London (TfL) is "particularly suspicious" that a large number of exotic motors and two-seater sports car owners have coughed the £82 application fee and £27 for the annual minicab licence, thereby gaining exemption from Red Ken's £8 a day fee to enter the capital.

Among the luxury vehicles on the list of shame are "17 Bentley Continentals, which cost £117,500 new, three £300,000 Maybach 62s and eight two-seater Mercedes-Benz SLs". Others apparently plying their trade include an Aston Martin DB7, two Maserati Quattroportes and eight Rolls Royce Phantoms.

Some of these are evidently owned by cash-flush Londoners who live within the charging zone, keen to avoid stumping up from next October when owners of cars rated in band G for vehicle excise duty will lose their 90 per cent residents' discount and attract a £25-a-day fee.

To register your motor as a minicab, you just need to flash a valid MOT certificate, but TfL "does not check on the suitability of the vehicle or the likelihood that it would be used for private hire".

TfL was reportedly alerted to the outrage by Clean Green Cars, which preaches the "Gospel of Green". The website's Jay Nagley said: "The congestion charge is presented as an environmental measure, yet exceptions are being granted to some of the highest-polluting vehicles on the road.

"While we have no objection to exemption for minicabs in principle, it is absurd that a private hire vehicle with a V12 engine has to pay nothing, when a family doing the school run with a Renault Espace 2.0T Auto will be liable for the full £25. The logical move would be to stop exemptions for any minicabs that fall into band G. That way, no one would have an incentive to register their luxury car as a minicab."

Tfl will investigate the scam by "contacting the owners of the luxury cars and asking them for details of any taxi company that uses their vehicles". Cab firms must keep records of fare-paying journeys and TfL will "demand to see those records and compare them with its own data on vehicles in the charge zone".

A Tfl spokeswoman declared: "We are taking this very seriously. We call for anybody who has evidence to get in touch with us." ®

That's cunning, shame it's illegal.

What exactly is the legal definition of a minicab and how far can it be stretched??

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 14:06 
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There there is free, unhindered use of bus lanes :shock:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 14:46 
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Is it illegal?

I would not have thought there was anything illegal about registering a car as a minicab, provided one did not drive it for hire or reward without a valid driver's badge. They would probably find they couldn't smoke in them anymore though :P Round my way, minicabs need a council roadworthiness test in addition to the normal MoT, which might weed out the insincere.

I genuinely don't believe this is illegal, and if the cost of registering as a minicab was closer to that of the charge then no fuss would be being made at all!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 14:55 
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Can you register a mobile office? :D

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 16:27 
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I've often wondered why cabs are considered "public" transport.

Why is it "greener" or "congestion friendly" to take a cab, which drives around all day looking for fares, rather than a private car? Wasn't the point of the CC to force people onto buses/trains?

On the same vein, why are cabs allowed to use bus lanes?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 16:51 
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because London transport is not disabled friendly?

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 18:31 
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What about the insurance though ?
"Not for use for hire or reward"


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 20:10 
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RobinXe wrote:
Is it illegal?

I would not have thought there was anything illegal about registering a car as a minicab, provided one did not drive it for hire or reward without a valid driver's badge. They would probably find they couldn't smoke in them anymore though :P Round my way, minicabs need a council roadworthiness test in addition to the normal MoT, which might weed out the insincere.

I genuinely don't believe this is illegal, and if the cost of registering as a minicab was closer to that of the charge then no fuss would be being made at all!


I think it depends how the exemption is worded. If it exempts any vehicle registered as a minicab regardless of who is using it then this seems to be a valid idea. If the exemption is for a vehicle being used as a minicab they could be in trouble.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 22:33 
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jomukuk wrote:
What about the insurance though ?
"Not for use for hire or reward"

If once a year you let a minicab driver with his own insurance use the vehicle :?:

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 00:39 
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Graeme wrote:
I've often wondered why cabs are considered "public" transport.

Why is it "greener" or "congestion friendly" to take a cab, which drives around all day looking for fares, rather than a private car? Wasn't the point of the CC to force people onto buses/trains?

On the same vein, why are cabs allowed to use bus lanes?


They don't spend that much time driving round looking for hires - that's dead money to them. They tend to sit on ranks mostly. On balance they're probably better than having a car for each passenger-journey they make each day. They're also the only form of public transport that will actually go door-to-door (unless you live next to a bus stop and your destination is also next to one)! That's very often important for the disabled who (despite buses being accessible) can't often actually get from their house to a bus stop! The only place it all falls down is that few wheelchairs will fit safely in a traditional black cab - and they're the only sort allowed in London!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 02:48 
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jomukuk wrote:
What about the insurance though ?
"Not for use for hire or reward"


Yes, but if they don't ply for hire then there's no hire or reward...

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 02:56 
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Thatsnews wrote:
jomukuk wrote:
What about the insurance though ?
"Not for use for hire or reward"


Yes, but if they don't ply for hire then there's no hire or reward...


Thats an interesting issue.

I spoke to my friend, who drives minicabs, this evening. It turns out that, around this administrative region anyway, you cannot drive a car that is registered as a minicab without a minicab driver's badge.

This is perhaps a local regulation, and this locale is renowned for its ridiculous regulations, but it may well be common with the London councils.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 08:56 
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In Southampton even if it is a traditional black cab you have to stick HUGE stickers on saying TAXI on the doors.
Private hire must have BIG banner "NO BOOKING,NO RIDE" on the rear doors. You wouldnt want to do that to your bentley, would you?

However, The Dorchester might have a contract firm with a few nice cars for its customers, So mybe some of these grand cars realy are mini cabs. And maybe someone does want to be dropped off in style in a 2 door merc.

As for londons disabled, I heard on radio 4 that some are buying 25 cars a year using thier VAT exemption and selling them right back to the dealer making £3k a time. It knocks £17.5% off of a £300k car, adds 1 name to the log book.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 13:46 
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I think the insurance issue could be a sticking point - would need to check with the insurance company, I suspect; but the whole point of minicabs as opposed to black cabs is they aren't allowed to ply for hire, they have to be specifically pre-booked.

As has been said, if the Congestion Charge excludes private hire vehicles per se (rather than vehicles being actually used for private hire) and as long as their registration docs don't actually require some proven level of private hire for renewal, there might not be anything TfL could do about it. Though am sure they'll be trying...

It's ridiculous to try and exclude luxury vehicles from being minicabs, what about all the companies doing airport runs, hotel pickups, corporate work etc - do we really want to kill off the London tourist/business goldmine that much!?

Ian


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 19:34 
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How will you ensure exemptions from the Congestion Charge given to private hire firms is not abused?
The list of vehicles submitted by a private hire operator must match those that have to be kept for the Public Carriage Office (PCO). The Operating Licensing Regulations which demand this, support the law governing Private Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998.

Exemption from Congestion Charging only applies when vehicles are on hire. Not when they’re being driven for private use.

All bookings must be recorded in line with Regulation 11 of the Operators’ Licensing Regulations and the records kept by the operator in line with Regulation 10.

We frequently inspect Operators’ Records and analyse the movement of a random sample of their vehicles within the Zone.
If we find the exemption has been abused, we may take legal action and the PCO could revoke the license.

PCO and Congestion Charging will work closely together to ensure the enforcement of the terms of this exemption.


From: (yes, I did try to shorten it, but it doesn't work then !)

http://tinyurl.com/2wfqqk


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 01:36 
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anton wrote:
In Southampton even if it is a traditional black cab you have to stick HUGE stickers on saying TAXI on the doors.
Private hire must have BIG banner "NO BOOKING,NO RIDE" on the rear doors. You wouldnt want to do that to your bentley, would you?

However, The Dorchester might have a contract firm with a few nice cars for its customers, So mybe some of these grand cars realy are mini cabs. And maybe someone does want to be dropped off in style in a 2 door merc.

As for londons disabled, I heard on radio 4 that some are buying 25 cars a year using thier VAT exemption and selling them right back to the dealer making £3k a time. It knocks £17.5% off of a £300k car, adds 1 name to the log book.


Most Councils have a clear distinction between "Hackneys" and "Private Hires". "Hackneys" (often traditional balck cabs but not in all areas) can "ply for hire" - i.e. pick up when hailed on the street. "Private Hires" MUST be pre-booked - hence the big signs on the back doors in your area. Not all councils choose to do it that way though.

Also some councils (don't know about London) have another category of hire car called "Special Event Vehicle". These are often American stretched limos and classic cars (such as posh hotel chauffeurs cars and wedding cars) which, obviously, are not subject to the same licensing conditions.

As for the disabled making a profit from their cars yes, it's a known problem but they don't ALL do it!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 08:40 
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jomukuk wrote:
From: (yes, I did try to shorten it, but it doesn't work then !)


Type "link"
highlight "link"
click the url button

put the cursor after "[url" type "=" paste in the link

(url=http://url]URL text[/url) but with square brackets

your link

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 19:58 
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Yes, I did it too....
I even inserted it manually, but it still didn't work. It's probably an aol thing...
it also does not work on other forums....
it "bottoms-out" at about 20 chars... much more and it does not work.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 20:07 
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jomukuk wrote:
Yes, I did it too....
I even inserted it manually, but it still didn't work. It's probably an aol thing...
it also does not work on other forums....
it "bottoms-out" at about 20 chars... much more and it does not work.


When nothing else works, Tinyurl is an option. I fixed the mega link with:

http://tinyurl.com/2wfqqk

From: http://tinyurl.com (dead easy to use and free.)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 03:29 
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ER......................Why not just: Buy a Bus?.................... :lol:


After all, if you want to hide in a forest, you must look like a tree! :roll:


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