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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 21:17 
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflif ... index.html
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Is it just your imagination, or do many of your fellow motorists lack even a rudimentary grasp of traffic laws?

Well, if a test administered by GMAC Insurance is any indication, one in six people cruising our highways and byways -- roughly 36 million licensed drivers -- would flunk their driver's test if they had to take it today. Not only that, but based on the 2007 GMAC Insurance National Drivers Test data the state with the most road-going dummies is New York, while the most knowledgeable ones are out West to Idaho.

"The results were pretty eye-opening to us," says Gary Kusumi, president and CEO of GMAC Insurance Personal Lines. "Not only did they indicate that there are wide differences in terms of state scores, but there were significant trends that demonstrated the general public might have forgotten must-know items from when they first took their driver's test."

"Two questions consistently sent respondents skidding into the weeds," Kusumi notes. The first has to do with the correct action to take when approaching a steady yellow traffic light (Answer: Stop if it is safe to do so.). A whopping 84 percent of respondents spun their wheels on that one. The next biggest puzzler after that question had to do with the proper following distance from a car in front of you (Answer: Two seconds).

Also of interest from the GMAC Insurance test:

• Drivers 35 and older were more likely to pass

• Illinois, Georgia, Washington, D.C., Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island and Massachusetts were the least knowledgeable states overall, with average scores under 75 percent

• Fifty-five percent of the respondents didn't know how many feet before making a left or right turn to activate their turn signals

• The national average score was 77.1 percent

"We believe that the adoption of a uniform driver curriculum will significantly improve the driving skills of Americans," says Adele Kristiansson, a spokesperson for the National Road Safety Foundation. "Some states do not require mandatory education for novice drivers, and some states require it," adds Kristiansson. "My organization is concerned because driver education is an orphaned child and it's suffering."

On the Web at www.nationalroadsafety.org, and offering free programs to the public, the National Road Safety Foundation was created in 1961 by Fraydun Manocherian, after two youthful friends were killed in automobile accidents in Westchester County, New York.

According to GMAC Insurance, 18 percent of respondents failed its National Driving Test in 2007, compared with 9 percent in 2006. The test can be taken online at www.gmacinsurance.com.

The following state rankings were released for the 2007 GMAC Insurance National Drivers Test:

1. Idaho.
2. Alaska
3. Minnesota
4. Wisconsin
5. Kansas
6. Washington
7. South Dakota
8. Montana
9. Oregon
10. Iowa
11. Nebraska
12. Wyoming
13. Oklahoma
13. Indiana
13. North Carolina
16. New Mexico
17. North Dakota
18. Missouri
19. Delaware
19. Nevada
21.Vermont
22. California
23. Hawaii
24. Texas
25. Maryland
25.Alabama
27. Arkansas
28. Michigan
29. Kentucky
30. Utah
31. Ohio
31.Colorado
33. South Carolina
33.Arizona
33. Florida
36. Maine
37. New Hampshire
37. Mississippi
37. Tennessee
40. Connecticut
41. Virginia
41. Louisiana
43. West Virginia
44. Georgia
45. Illinois
46. Pennsylvania
47. Rhode Island
48. Massachusetts
48. District of Columbia
48. New Jersey
51. New York


Not posting this in the news section since it doesn't directly apply to the UK. What scares me most about this is a thread on a mostly-US car forum I read a year or so back about what driving tests are like. One guy (I think he was from Oregon) reported that his test was: turn right out of the test centre, turn right at the intersection, then right again, and again, and again, then right into the test centre.. passed!

I wonder what the percentage would be over here where the tests are harder?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 13:43 
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Not posting this in the news section since it doesn't directly apply to the UK. What scares me most about this is a thread on a mostly-US car forum I read a year or so back about what driving tests are like. One guy (I think he was from Oregon) reported that his test was: turn right out of the test centre, turn right at the intersection, then right again, and again, and again, then right into the test centre.. passed!

I wonder what the percentage would be over here where the tests are harder?[/quote]

A bit of an over simplification of the US driving test I think!

One thing they do which is different to over hear is that you can get a learners permit at 14 and driving lessions are mandatory in most US schools. They also have a more graduated permit scheme. There are restrictions on time you can drive and number of passengers you can have depending on your age.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 13:59 
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I seem to recall watching episode of the "Wonder Years" in which Kevin had his driving test und kept messing up his parallel parks in his lessons to the extent he end up having nightmares und sleepless nights over it.

I think he take test und manage to overcome his fears after much angst. :lol:

I enjoyed that series on recent repeaters of it.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 18:33 
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Gizmo wrote:
A bit of an over simplification of the US driving test I think!


It varies (dramatically) between states.

I wish I could find the thread as it was very interesting.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 23:00 
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I have personal experience of taking a test in Florida..... on a supermarket car park. I jest not.

I didn't really know what to expect before I got there. When it was my turn, I drove round for about 5 mins with the examiner. I was waiting for the point at which we would exit the car park and drive on the road.

When we pulled up back at the test centre, I actually thought I'd failed, on the basis the examiner had decided not to take me out an real road. But no.... I had passed.

One of those "Only in America" kind of moments. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 23:19 
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ianc wrote:
When we pulled up back at the test centre, I actually thought I'd failed, on the basis the examiner had decided not to take me out an real road. But no.... I had passed.

One of those "Only in America" kind of moments. :lol:


Not quite.

The motorcycle driving test passed in Cyprus is/was (not quite sure about it now) recognised in the UK, and it was common practice for visiting servicemen to get someone to book them a test for a day when they were on deployment there. The reason is obvious, it was piss easy to pass!
One chap reportedly turned up at the test centre on his loaned bike and the examiner asked him where he had come from.
'Akrotiri' he replied.
'Well if you've ridden that far then you can obviously ride a bike' said the examiner, and passed him on the spot.

More commonly the examiner would stand outside the test centre and watch while the candidate rode up to a roundabout, went around and returned to where he stood. That was it, one pass certificate and 999cc of screaming death machine here we come :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 23:46 
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It might explain this: -

http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%2 ... tm#table-2


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 20:03 
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weepej wrote:


May explain what?

Some of the highest accident rates occur with in the states with the lowest population density (access to emergency services is extremely restricted) also the most extremes of climate. Wyoming has 5 people per square mile, Mississippi has 50. The UK has around 900 people per square mile. Mississippi also does not salt the roads in winter and the roads are treacherous in the snow (I know I have been there in winter).

The lower accident rates are in eastern states with higher populations and better roads. There is also less wildlife to hit.

In states such as Wisconsin wild animals (deer) account for a significant number of fatals.

so lets look at ALL the facts before we pass judgement.

I have driven in across 30 US states in all seasons. You cannot compare it with driving in Europe.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 08:44 
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Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of children between the ages of 16 and 21 - regardless of license status - that failed the learner's permit test was regularly exceeded by the percentage of adults between 21 and 34 y.o. that failed. Then again, I suspect that most insurance companies already have data to this effect, which may help to explain why insurance companies tend to give students with good grades discounts.

On a separate and perhaps more important, if more overlooked note, is that the learner's permit test is, in and of itself, a failure.

The learner's permit test in most, if not all, states in Amerika is almost exclusively about the rules and regulations of that state. Aside from some 'rules of thumb', like a two- second gap, neither the new York State Driver's Manual, nor the NYS learner's permit test, ask more than a few questions regarding either the actual operation of a motor vehicle, or the social dynamics involved in how to negotiate traffic safely and without drama, except in the context of the rules.

To be blunt, you cannot possibly hope to learn enough about how to use a car, or effectively wield one in public, by reading the New York State Driver's Manual, or by passing a NYS learner's permit test, to actually be considered, in either Paul Smith, or Steve Haley's sense, a 'qualified road user'. Nevermind learning anything about how to observe or assess the driving environment, or about a reasonable sense of danger; such things are barely acknowledged at all.

The previous posts speak of 'road tests', which come after the learner's permit is acquired.

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1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


Last edited by The Rush on Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:21, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:20 
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About 15% of licensed Amerikan 'drivers' would fail the learner's permit test. Moreover, about 15% of licensed Amerikan drivers would fail the road test. The two populations would probably overlap so as to effectively disqualify 20% of the Amerikan driving population, leaving roughly 15,000,000 Amerikans eligible to retake the road test without also retaking the learner's permit test.

All of the previous posts regarding road tests are probably completely true, I'm afraid. A good friend of mine passed the road test in less than five minutes. He also personally knows someone who failed their first road test, only to pass his second road test in less than five minutes. I've never heard of a road test that took more than fifteen minutes. Mine took ten, and I was utterly disappointed at having been cheated of an opportunity.

A 'by-the-book' road test in New York State will never include anything that vaguely resembles an emergency maneuver, or highway, expressway, freeway, or thruway driving. Imagine if you lived in a quiet suburb where you could conceivably acquire everything you would require to survive - barely - by driving for no more than fifteen minutes in any one direction. Now imagine someone sitting next to you checking to make sure you break no rules, navigating, and telling you where to park. Presently, that is the ideal New York State road test.

That road test in a supermarket parking lot sounds a lot like stories I've heard of road tests in other states.

Seriously consider the possibility that, with driver testing, training, and education as lax as it is here, that graduated licensing may very well be a necessity.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:53 
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From my rudimentary knowledge of US geography it would appear that the more rural mid-west states broadly come out on top.

Ideas why, Rush?

I have a few, but I defer to you. :bow:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 21:44 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
From my rudimentary knowledge of US geography it would appear that the more rural mid-west states broadly come out on top.

Ideas why, Rush?

I have a few, but I defer to you. :bow:
From a quick peek at my globe ... most of those states (I am not considering states anywhere near the Canadian border)
1) have roads which tend to assist in both the creation and the enjoyment of higher driving skill
2) have lower population densities [which makes it safer to enjoy those roads]
3) have mass transit systems that the majority of residents would prefer to avoid, even if they were paid to use them
4) are the most likely to still have some form of driver's education classes available as an electable part of the high school curriculum
5) are very likely to engage in recreational endeavors which require or are greatly enhanced by a deeper understanding and appreciation of driving
6) have more jobs per capita which require or are greatly enhanced by superior driving skills, which naturally include etiquette and decorum
7) have more homogenous cultures, which generally tend towards more nuanced etiquette and decorum (they are very likely to see a failure to signal preceding a turn or lane change, as prima facie evidence of being a 'city slicker')

If I were to describe a typical commute from midtown Manhattan to Queens Village as a contrast
1) have fewer roads which stray from typical templates
2) we have one of the highest population densities [which usually tends to make driving more difficult for one, and more dangerous for others, to enjoy]
3) the only thing that really holds our mass transit system back is quality and quantity of service; more people would use it if either or both improved
4) we have to spend additional time and money after school hours to learn how to drive [like you'd have to do in most major Amerikan metropoli]
5) we tend to avoid recreational endeavors which require driving (I am a rare and lonely exception)
6) have fewer jobs per capita which require any driving skill, much less superior driving skill (so alone :( )
... 6a) few - if any - of these jobs pay six figure salaries on the books, and social pressures tend to increase with population density
7) have more heterogeneous cultures, which leads to more frequent misunderstandings regarding etiquette and decorum, which quickly lead to a driving style which focuses on the driver's objectives as primary, with etiquette and decorum as secondary
... 7a) in rural Amerika, a failure to be polite cannot possibly add more than five minutes to your commute ... whereas in New York or Los Angeles, a failure to be polite is worth much more than five minutes

[aside]I submit to you that any studies which suggest that polite metropolitan driving is not a waste of time, were conducted with drivers who were not skilled at being 'impolite'. Metropolitan driving tends toward a type of ambiguous body language that increases the ability to ... usurp ... a desired traffic position or make some other relatively sudden maneuver with little warning (driving in the city is all the warning you should need), while preserving a suitable threshold of safety. Doing so while using actually turn signals to your advantage without deception, and minimizing the negative repercussions of your behaviors on others in your wake is exceedingly rare, to say the least (it will take me a lifetime to master, and I will be very alone during most of my endeavors :violin: ).[/aside]

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


Last edited by The Rush on Fri Oct 24, 2008 21:59, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 21:54 
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I did my Class A CDL in Kansas in 1997. Piece of cake, easier than a car test here. Having said that, driving a vehicle that was 75 feet long, 14 feet high and 12"6' wide was very easy there too. Our new trucks did have limiters on them, they were limited to 70mph.

The following year I had to train the new recruits how to pass their CDL's, they all did.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 00:23 
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I imagine that the multiple choice permit tests in the midwest would neither be that much easier nor harder than the permit tests nearer the Amerikan borders. However, I'd bet that a higher percentage of first time driver applicants pass the permit test, based on the higher likelihood of it being part of their regular education.

I'd bet that, for a given state, midwest states have a greater proportion of licensed drivers than unlicensed drivers vs states largely comprised of metropolitan areas. I'll go so far as to guess that a greater percentage of 'upstate New Yorkers' are licensed drivers, while a lesser percentage of 'NuYawkuz' are licensed drivers. Further, of the latter, a greater percentage of licensed drivers from NYC don't drive as often, or nearly as many miles as 'upstate New Yorkers'. It's also worth noting that metropolitan New Yorkers tend to enjoy driving a whole lot less.

I might find the testing environment less challenging in the midwest - less cars per square mile - but with less applicants per proctor, and the greater likelihood that the proctor personally knows the applicant, I highly doubt the test tends to be over anywhere nearly as quickly as it tends to be in New York. I would imagine that the process is relished with somewhat more verve, and less of an urge to rush it and get the test over with.

Let me make something very clear about actual road tests in New York ...

1st, no road test takes place in Manahttan in any way, shape, or form. I think this is a grievous mistake.

2nd, no portion of any road test takes place on a street, avenue, drive, or road with more than two lanes per direction. No major roads, boulevards, turnpikes, or high- / park- / express- / free- / thru- ways ever wind up on a road test. Again, a grievous mistake.

3rd, no road test requires any sort of emergency avoidance maneuver. I'm sure it happens once in a blue moon, but never by design.

4th, the environments selected as roadtesting grounds tend to be suburbs with relatively low car concentrations, and of that, a higher than normal number of them tend to be over 45 y.o. when possible. In other words, the testing grounds are selected to make the test as easy as possible.

Obviously the test environments in upstate New York still manage to be significantly less traffic-dense - more closely resembling midwestern traffic densities and road design - than any of those in

Suffolk County, eastern Long Island - harder than upstate NY, but still easier than the following areas
Nassau County, western Long Island
Staten Island
Queens
Brooklyn
Bronx - an acceptable traffic density level for testing purposes, IMNSHO

Road tests in Manhattan are a fantasy for me, but a horrific nightmare for at least 99.9% of the rest of New York ... but I risk digressing again.

Compared to rural midwestern Amerika, road tests in the six areas I just mentioned are more likely to be over so quickly, you'll think you've failed, when you've actually passed. That is to say, that for what ever reasons, proctors are in more of a hurry in those six areas, than in upstate New York, who are still in more of a hurry than rural midwestern Amerikan proctors, generally.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:10 
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In the Mid West people more people have access to machinery at a younger age and that bit more experienced in driving before they are allowed on the road in a car. Would that have any bearing on the matter? If so it turns the assumption that raising the driving age will reasult in less crashes on its head.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 21:19 
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adam.L wrote:
In the Mid West people more people have access to machinery at a younger age and that bit more experienced in driving before they are allowed on the road in a car. Would that have any bearing on the matter? If so it turns the assumption that raising the driving age will result in less crashes on its head.
My father familiarized me with driving when I was eight years old - just with the car, by the way. I was only allowed to drive around in Flushing Meadow Park in the early mornings, when there were very few people, and even less cars to interact with.
By the time I was twelve, when we would go shopping, I was allowed to go get the car out of the parking space and meet my parents right by the elevator (I guess you could say I was their valet?)

I didn't learn the social aspects of driving until I got my learner's permit, but by that time, I was very comfortable with how a car responded to my inputs; I wasn't learning how to operate a car and behave like a good motorist at the same time.
As a New Yorker, my childhood was a statistical anomaly in regards to driving.

Quite often, kids in the midwest are allowed by their parents to ride dirt motorbikes, quad bikes/ATVs, etc. As long as they aren't operated on public roads designed for cars and trucks, law enforcement can't say much, and have more important things to do anyway.

I'm not going to categorically say that raising the minimum driving age will automatically result in more crashes, but - assuming all other things being equal - it does seem reasonable to suspect that someone who was already more-than-adequately familiar with the mechanics of driving by 16 y.o (assuming s/he doesn't kill her/himself and four of her/his friends before going off to college) will be a better driver at 25 y.o., than the other kid who waited until s/he was 16 y.o. to begin to learn how to drive, even if both passed their road tests at the exact same age.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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