Safe Speed Forums

After someone died racing someone else through an urban area at 90mph, the message it seems is not, racing each other is bad, and neither is it this was an isolated incident with two muppets at far beyond the speed of any normal motorist on those roads.

No instead we are left with the message 'speed kills'.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/display.var.1894639.0.man_admits_causing_death_of_motorist_in_race.php

Yes, it's a shortfall in understanding that is costing lives.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I may be misreading this but...

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How can he be guilty of causing DbyDD? it was the other guy who was driving dangerously and who crashed into the landrover. The fact that the defendent was ALSO driving dangerously is a separate issue and to me seems irrelevent (Legally speaking) The dead guy didnt have to join in the race!

As for failing to stop. was the defendent "involved" in the accident (ie was he involved in a collision with any other vehicle or merely a "witness" to the actual collision).

Does this mean that if I "witness" another driver having an accident, I legally obliged under pain of prossecution to stay at the scene and contact the police simply because I happened to be there at the time??

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Yep, that is it exactly.
After doing the 999 thing you are expected to remain there until someone arrives.
Ignoring the fact that it's 3 in the morning, miles from anywhere, and your only company is a smashed car with a steaming corpse inside.

Like many areas we are plagued with "boy racers" zooming around in 30 areas at 60 and over, overtaking on blind bends and on the wrong side of traffic islands, and so on - mostly in the late evening and early hours of the morning. Not surprisingly, when the local police asked about local concerns, "speeding" came top of the list.

The police response was to monitor a busy main road in the middle of the day, at a time when the boy racers are not around - or if they were, it would be too busy for them to cause havoc. They published the outcome:



Also, they are setting up "community speedwatch" teams. They will be able to monitor speed, and "warning letters" may be sent to "offenders".

I can see the boy racers quaking with fear.

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Brian

And there it is.

I sometimes go for a ride or a walk around my area during the late evening. More often than not I'll here the telltale acceleration noises and (the more obvious) continued screeching noises - it's always coming from the same areas. I would have thought they would be easy pickings but I've never seen police in action there.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

I too am worried by charging the other 'racer' with causing the death because he was supposedly 'involved'

It reminds me of the sad tale of a guy known as DC911. I don't remember the full details but basically he was driving home (in his Porsche 911, predictably) and some guy on a Ducatti motorbike decided to overtake him, hit an oncoming car and was killed. Some busybody decided that they were "racing", which apparently means means "driving fast whilst being followed by another vehicle that is doing the same speed" in busybody-language.

He got 5 years for basically being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Even if this pair were street racing, the fact that the other guy got himself killed is purely that guy's fault, unless the survivor did a Schumaccer Chop or similar manoeuvre to cause the accident. But from the article it sounds like a poorly executed overtake on the part of the deceased.


That said, an Impreza driver rising to a challenge by a Vauxhall Nova is pretty dumb, it's not like you need to prove anything.

Lum, assuming that what you heard was the truth, and the 911 driver wasn't speeding up to stop the motorbike overtaking (in which case he deserved what he got), that's shocking. Somehow I doubt the same court proceedings would have happened if the poor 911 driver had been driving a less "flashy" motor. Sounds like discrimination and jealousy on the part of the busybody and possibly whoever found him guilty. As usual we only have one side of the story, but it does sound like that.

It's bad enough when people get points and fines when they've done absolutely nothing wrong, but 5 years' jail on a busybody's (incorrect) say-so? In fact, IANAL but surely the busybody's word alone wouldn't have been enough. Surely one or more other witnesses backed up the busybody or the 911 driver incriminated himself? Otherwise it doesn't sound like it was beyond reasonable doubt to me.

Worrying if it's all true though. I'd prefer to think it wasn't TBH. Jail for being overtaken, I mean FFS.

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Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

Well, I don't know the full story. It cropped up on Scoobynet a few times (and usually ended up being deleted due to it being an ongoing court proceeding that they didn't want to prejudice), but plenty of people there have vouched for the guy's character and his driving skill and from what I have read he was returning from a trackday and doesn't sound like the kind of arrogant cock who would speed up just because of someone who can go faster than him.

There may well of been more than one "witness" it doesn't take much to see a motorbike tailing a 911 at high speeds and assume that they are racing. I have heard tales of a guy (in the US) reported to the police for "racing at 50mph on a residential street", policeman shows up to investigate the complaint and he demonstrates that 3rd and 4th gear are broken on his car, forcing him to commute in 2nd. He eventually confronts the complainer who responds "Don't lie to me, I know what 50mph sounds like". He now makes a point of passing her house in 1st gear at 25mph.

Edit: found some of the story here: http://bbs.scoobynet.com/archive/index. ... 09746.html

There was a similar miscarriage of justice recently where someone was found guilty of DBDD after being involved in a fatal collision because it was proved that they had used their mobile phone at the wheel earlier in their journey, even though there was no evidence that they were using their phone at the time of the collision.

It is Police policy these days to treat fatal collision investigation the same way as they would a murder investigation. That is why the word "accident" was binned - it implies no-one is to blame. The policy now is that there is always someone to blame. If you are thinking "Witch hunt" then you are along the right lines.

I'll give you three guesses which Chief Constable thought up this new policy....

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

Is it the chief constable that regularly calls for the legalisation of hard drugs, despite constantly telling us that one of them is life threatening (speed kills) by any chance?

It always comes back to speeding becasue there are too many morons who have no respect for speed limits or the safety of the public - all those so-called safety groups that are extremely thinly disguised pro-speed organisations and have hate campaigns against anyone who has any concern at all for public safety. Plus, so-called 'programmes' like 'top gear' with (cretin) clarkson, (moron) may and (theres nothing wrong with speeding - whoops - Ive just crashed AGAIN) hammond promoting selfish & dangerous activities. anyone who is against public safety is too thick to be allowed to drive.

I respect the speed limits.
I have the utmost respect for the safety of the public - I am a member of that public.
Would you like to debate this sensibly or are you just here to shout and then run away?

I fear however the attack dogs will get to you before you have a chance to reply to me

Yay! Another poisonous, comically simplistic, "I support cameras for all the wrong reasons and I don't really care about the thousands of deaths every year that are no longer reducing" ex-Cycling+ troll!



I reckon this one's from CC. I wonder how many difficult questions he'll refuse to answer before he goes back under his bridge?

I know, I know:

Really though, these people make it so incredibly obvious from the start that attempting to reason with them will be a complete waste of time. I don't know why they bother because any observer can see that they always come off worse. Still, their lookout I suppose.

Let's kick off with a couple of simple questions, just in case I'm wrong (it does happen very occasionally): Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between exceeding the speed limit and going too fast? If so, how would you say that they are different?


Whatever do you mean?

Besides, dogs wouldn't last 5 seconds in this place, we have some clever cats who don't put up with any nonsense and would undoubtedly come out on top....

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Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

No, you can have him

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Just think we should give these eedjits a chance
Still, I reckon this was a 'knock and run' job.

purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!


May ist "Captain Slow"

Clarkson und Hammond play on tracks und it obviously entertainment.


Lewis Hamilton .. und co.. that also on track und "practice.. practice .. practice.. " like any other sport. - including cycling which also promote speedy matters

But whilst we enjoy the razzamattazz - we also have feet well on ground und discuss how to make things safer.. promote pride in acquiring the right skills to drive a car, ride a bike, bicycle und horse safely, courteously und ver considerately at all times.

This does not include jumping red lights .. riding or driving on pavements or paying scant regard to any road user around us. Or allowing kids to ride motorised vehicle illegally either und then wondering why the accident happen.

It mean just what it say on tin .. discussing road safety -which also include Green Cross Code Awareness.

Or do speed limit only apply to other people und not a cyclist in Richmond und other Park?

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

When will people like "gatsoforever" learn that speed is only a "contributory factor" in any accident and has been substantiated by figures isssued by the authorities that no more 7% of accidents are caused solely by SPEED alone.

The majority of accidents (as has been proved again by figures) that accidents are caused by lack of attention and misjudgement such as other factors like not looking for other vehicles or pedestrians / road furniture and numerous other reasons for the accident to occur.

It makes me wonder does this person have something to do with the "Camera Partnerships" such as an employee of the partnerships and if this is the case would you defend the removal of cameras and thus the end of your employment if you were in their shoes?

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"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

[simpleton]Numbers too compli...er, hard. Long words bad. Long sentences bad. Speed bad. Slow good. Drivers bad. Cyclists good. Speed kills. Slow down. It obvious. I not understand Safe Speed arguments. So I say they wrong. Speeders morons. Everyone else safe. Black and white. Easy peasy. Cameras work. You all evil. Der.[/simpleton]


You have to wonder that whenever you get someone who is determined to support cameras despite being totally unable and unwilling to begin to defend them adequately.

The fact is that whatever you think about whether cameras work, you cannot possibly deny that there are plenty of people who have extremely important interests in the continued operation of the devices: those who work for and are in charge of pratnerships, camera manufacturers, camera importers, and others. No-one can deny that these people stand to lose a lot if cameras were to be scrapped. Many of them don't have anything else to fall back on.

Since there are so many of these people, and they are so hugely keen to keep cameras going, it is utterly inconceivable that they wouldn't want to persuade the public (as well as politicians) that cameras were A Good Thing. One way of persuading the public is propaganda. But another is to go on Internet forums, pretend to be a disinterested member of the public, doggedly defend cameras for all you're worth, and absolutely refuse to back down, even in the face of overwhelming logic. This forum would be very high on such a person's list. Given the numbers involved it is utterly unthinkable that we haven't had at least some such people on here over the years. No-one, whether they think cameras work or not, could possibly deny the existence of such people. Anyone who does invites suspicion that they are such a person themselves.

Smeggy is right in a way that it doesn't matter what someone's interests are on a forum, it's their arguments that count. However it is frustrating to know that such people clearly aren't going to be open to reason and back down; I'd rather have discussions with people who are genuine and who will listen and change their opinions when they are shown to be wrong. Otherwise it's a bit of a depressing waste of time.

I also think that anyone who knows that cameras are killing people, but continues to support them because of their own pocket, is nothing short of a monster. They would rather keep their (our) cash coming in than stop the deaths, every one of which is an absolute tragedy. I can't even begin to contemplate how someone could be so incredibly heartless and selfish. In terms of results it's the same as someone carrying out a contract killing. That may sound dramatic but death is dramatic. I can only guess that they kid themselves and pretend that it isn't really like that. Well it's exactly like that as far as I'm concerned. For anyone reading this who I have just described, you're scum, and I don't know how you can bear to look in the mirror.

_________________
Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

It subjective.. but Ferdl killed by 20 mph impact of badly maintained HGV


I nearly killed when some one taken ill behind wheel.

These not speed related.. und the first was avoidable.n If only it had been serviced ; Ferdl would be alive.. living up to his potential.. possibly a very strong voice for the justice he pledged to live his life by as a legal beagle und part time alpine athlete.... who was in line for the medal podium in his field.


* I think mine was just pure bad luck in every respect if I am to be honest.

It happen.. the chance. Kismet..Fate.. Unhappy Co-incidencce of circumstances which merge to create the unique tragedies ..

All incidents are unique to their own set of chance circumstance.. und because the vessels ofdeath are moving.. it all too easy to blame speed und related kinetic impacts. when the prime cause was daft human error.. crass stupidityl;; fails to COAST or


tthe worst crime of all .. COMPLACENCY of the
"I never speed brigade .. but so pre-occupied with this that they fail to see the hazard.. become a blip casualty und support us in ephemeral anger but not really learn much or want to

Or just so complacent that they never think that life ist one long .. eternal learning curve und to fail to learn mean you die here - so needlessly. To be blunt.


Paul was poorly. It not his fault or lifestyle fault ... to answer the deranged lycra nonentities who think riding a bike cure everything. Me und Mad Doc wish it did. But life .. it not rosy coloured fairy tale.

Heart disease? It can affect anyone..und any lurgy or severe stress can weaken the human system. Paulie was proud man.. brave man...stoic.. perhaps a bit stubborn when faced with his very human frailty.


He knew this but he did not ever want to see anyone die pointlessly.


We owe to his memory .. common sense values.

Daft behaviour such as pointless red mist racing kills.

Blips do not kill


Speed cams penalise the blippers. It only when someone die that idiot get nailed.

Speed cams do not save lives#


REAL police do.


I WANT MY DIBBLES.. IN GEARS.. STEPHENS ./. IANHS.. MAN.. NEILS.. VONS.. GONES..TONY RECS.. SILVERY MIKES... JOHN 57S .. MUNGOS.. JOHN ROBSONS .. CRISPY PORK SCRATCHINGS.

(licky licky yum yum )


These guys make that difference und I simply ask no more than employ their mold.


I will bet that if we make Steve redundant und have Ian in charge .. we halve Cumbrian tragedy within weeks. Und likewise across the land


C;mon Steviebabes. Sign up. Tell me I am wrong und PROVE IT

I not dob you in here to your bosses. I actually like your posts as I can claw you und toy with you most relentlessly

but with respect.. always with respect . tinged with just a little banter of course.


I am sure of your character Steve though.

We not see eye to eye. But it still important that we chat with some banter but not with hate. I not hate anyone. I questiion what you do for your living when I live in this area und know people die in danger spots.. und not in revenue raise spots

I want some answers from you und I am entitled to them.


Steve .. if you still lurking.


I think you saddened really that Paul pass away as he did.

I got impression that Steve und chums did respect Paul really.


We keep if you do post. .. Steve. Mad Doc und self outed you on PH.. but you so obvious there.


Register und talk off line if you like. We pro safety led lifestyle .. but without Nanny Government .

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!