Safe Speed Forums

Quick question, is street lighting required for a 30mph zone to apply.

Thanks

No, but if there is no street lighting 30 mph repeaters have to be installed.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

If there is a system of street lighting then it is by definition a 30 limit, and no speciffic traffic order is required. Otherwise a traffic order is required.
If there are street lights then repeater signs aren't required or allowed. If not then they are.

In Scotland the first part is different, only C or unclassified roads are default 30 limits just because they have street lights. So in Scotland an A or B road with street lights would require a traffic order for it to have a 30 limit. But the signage requirements are the same.

This doesn't apply to motorways or other special roads where street lamps have no meaning.

So if there are no street lamps then a traffic order is required and so are repeater signs. If there are street lamps then it gets more complicated.

_________________
Andrew.

Bingo!

How far apart do these have to be?

(the road in question has none but just want to get my facts straight)

See here:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tpm/tal ... limitsigns

400 metres if on the same side of the road, 250 metres if on alternating sides of the road.

However bear in mind these are only guidelines - all the law says is that they have to be at "regular intervals".

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

"At regular intervals"
There used to be set distances, but apparently there aren't any more.

Oh, I see PeterE just replied while I was writing this! Well there's still some interesting reading here: ABD - Signing Requirements for Speed Limits.

_________________
Andrew.

I have just received a NIP from Hampshire Police after 24 years of incident free driving - have never even had a parking ticket! My "crime" was allegedly driving at 36mph on a main road where the speed limit is clearly marked at 40 and then suddenly changes to 30. I am guessing it must have been a copper hiding behind the bushes with a radar gun because there are no speed cameras on this road and, whilst driving home tonight, I noticed that the 30 signs are positioned very close to the 40 signs AND the road runs downhill. In fact, from a driving position, the 30 mph sign is virtually obscured by the 40 mph sign.

My first instinct is to argue my case but my husband says if I do that they will double the fixed penalty points to 6 instead of 3 and raise the £60 fine.. is that true? If anyone could advise the best way to deal with this, I would be most grateful.

If I do end up having to pay, I really feel like taking paying the entire £60 in 1p coins!

You cannot pay 60 quid in 1p coins, well...you can, but they are not obliged to accept them. 1 and 2p coins are legal tender only up to 20 pence.

You're right.. and I was only joking (not!).... However, I found this on the www. which is quite interesting...

COINS:

Coins are legal tender throughout the United Kingdom for the following amounts:

£5 - for any amount
£2 - for any amount
£1 - for any amount
50p - for any amount not exceeding £10
25p (Crown) - for any amount not exceeding £10
20p - for any amount not exceeding £10
10p - for any amount not exceeding £5
5p - for any amount not exceeding £5
2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

Oh you criminal.
I don't suppose it was the A27?
Are there street lamps in the 30 limit?


Get photos!


I believe the 3 points are fixed for "speeding". It is 6 points for "failure to furnish". Both are (unless it changed recently?) up to £1000 fine. Normally £60 though. If you go to court and loose you'll have to pay costs which usually seem to be around £35. If you win you can claim costs.


No, you want a mixed bag of "legal tender" nicely shaken up. Perfectly legal.

_________________
Andrew.

Hi Andrew.... Public Enemy No.1 here... it WAS the A27.. Bassett Green Road to be precise, coming down from Chilworth Roundabout. It seems to be a favourite "trick" for the Police to hide in the hedgerows armed with a radar gun at precisely the point where a limit changes from 40 to 30 as I have heard of several other people getting caught for the same "offence" all of whom, like me, have been driving for years and years without incident which is probably why I feel so bad... feel even worse at the prospect of having to fork out £1000... in any combination of currency. Seems a bit harsh for a first offence. I wish they would concentrate their efforts on white van man chattering on his mobile phone, one hand on the wheel, going round the Chilworth Roundabout onto the M3 in the rush hour - something I see most mornings, which, IMHO is far more dangerous to other road users.

What's the best thing to do with this NIP? Some internet sites say fill it in and send it back, but unsigned. Police say they have "photographic evidence" so do I have a right to see that "evidence" if it does exist?

I know this location well and used to go down it every day. Bassett Green Road is downhill from Chilworth and widens out past the Crematorium so you perceive it to be a low hazard area and your brain thus tells you that you can safely go a little faster. The police typically wait on the left near the layby for the general store. It's a classic.

However, is it a dangerous place? I have no accident information.

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

This thread might be of interest. It goes quite in depth and is probably another part of the A27 but shows you what can happen if you research!
If there's street lamps and it's a 30 limit you won't have any luck on bad signage grounds though.

Replying un-signed is old advice. Still good for Scotland, but Hampshire isn't in Scotland.

The best place for advice is [the forums at] PePiPoo. Fill in their NIP wizard and it will give you some basic advice, then you can create a new forum thread about your case.

£1000 is the maximum fine. I don't remember hearing of anyone getting over £60 though. They might increase it rather than giving you a ban if you are already on 9 points and grovel because you need to drive to support your family, etc. Or something like that.

II would request to see the photographs "to help identify the driver" first. Don't mention evidence or they might get arsey. Don't tell them who was driving. If you have 28 days to respond you might as well use most of them.

_________________
Andrew.

Hi Malcolm

By the time I get to the shops I am generally travelling at 30 mph or less because of the approach to the pelican crossing and the kids from St George's School/the Flower Roads wandering aimlessly around in the road or whizzing out of the Flower Roads on pushbikes not looking where they are going. I have been going up and down that road, daily, for the past four years and never seen an accident there because the road is so wide at that point.. unlike The Avenue where there is at least one daily prang (or so it seems....) Further up, the signs change from 40 to 30 roughly at the junction to Bassett Green Village and there is very little spacing between the two different signs, so, if you were travelling (legally) at 40 and slowed down to 30, there could possibly be a few yards where you were technically "exceeding the speed limit" albeit by a very small amount.. Guess I am just feeling a bit miffed for being booked over such a minor transgression having had clean licence for over 24 years - AND I don't even drink! One of my friends got her first speeding ticket (she too had spotless licence for 20+ years up until then) for driving at 35 in a 30 limit, just outside Fordingbridge at 2 a.m. There were no other cars on the road at the time.. or mothers with prams, or young children playing football... The crime rate is soaring!

But then they get to solve all the crimes easily and the ratio of crimes detected to crimes solved gets better!

_________________
Andrew.

Hi Andrew

I took your advice and registered on PePiPoo - I have started my "own" thread and so far, had some really helpful advice. Thank you, too for taking the time and trouble to post. One of my work colleagues got a ticket (in Reading) and has been offered to go on Speed Awareness Training because it is his first offence - he has to pay for it however - I am not too bothered about having to pay because "they" will get me financially one way or another, so if I am going to fork out, I may as well NOT have any points put on my licence AND pay twice (effectively) in terms of higher insurance premium(s) for the next 4 years.

I think I will ask them for the photographs. Somebody on PePiPoo said it could be a "vague locus" - and they have not so far said exactly where this alleged incident occurred so it could well have been a van with a computer inside and never been examined by a human! Colleague also says not to annoy them or they may not offer the option of this Speed Awareness Training. Any thoughts on this?

Hi "Mooncat" firstly you can ask for the photo of the offence but what happens normally is they say "we only produce evidence in court" in the hope you will give up and go away because they don,t like the hassle of sending you a photo through the post as the sytem is weighted against the motorist to stop you clogging the courts up with cases (and costing money as well) as if more victims went to court there would be a lot more "lost cases" which the partnerships "DO NOT WANT"!

Secondly due to the sheer amount of "Criminals" (Richard Brunstroms words on Radio 2 Jeremy Vine show not mine) being found guilty of the horrendous crime of "Speeding" the majority of insurance companies no longer increase premiums for offenders unless you are a) involved in an accident due to speeding or b) are a persistent offender in which case they have the right to increase premiums as you are classed as a bad risk.

_________________
"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

Thanks Stormin

A very kind and helpful member of PePiPoo has advised that I may have a case for "vague locus". My NIP says simply "Bassett Green Road, Southampton". Bassett Green Road is 1.4 miles long, and it also has an offshoot which runs around the edge of a green surrounded by houses. The straight part of Bassett Green Road is a 40 limit for 1 mile and a 30 limit for .4 of a mile. There are numerous side roads and other features they could have used such as "at the junction of ... " but they have not done so. Therefore, arguably, for 1 mile I was NOT breaking the law by travelling at 36 mph and since they have not said whereabouts in Bassett Green Road the alleged offence occurred, or stated which way I was travelling (up or down) the road, there is a "standard" letter which others have used in similar cases to respond to the NiP - apparently it has worked in similar cases. On the NIP is says I was guilty of travelling at 36 mph in a 30mph restricted zone, but it does not say where exactly. I think you have to send this standard letter so it hits their desktops 14 days after the date of the NIP so they do not have the opportunity of issuing another but I may be wrong about this.

They say they have "video &/or photographic evidence" and if they have, surely they should have, or could have, been more specific by looking at their "evidence". My guess is I was decelerating from the 40 mph length of the road to the 30 mph part of the road. I think I am going to take a chance and send this letter.. and if they still persist, then I will ask for the photograph(s) as you suggest. The only think I am anxious about is aggravating matters unnecessarily.

See replies already received.

What I can tell you is that some police forces attempt a prosecution on the grounds that a 30mph road is a "restricted road". But the RTRA (1984) defines a "restricted road" as one which has a system of street lighting with lamps not more than 200yds apart (England and Wales - 183m in Scotland). However, not all roads with signs (and repeaters) have street lighting, and these roads are NOT restricted roads. I won my speeding case in magistrates' court because the police made this mistake, and effectively charged me under the wrong section of the act - S81(1), which makes it an offence to exceed 30mph on a restricted road. I won my case by arguing that I was not on a restricted road, and the Prosecution dropped the case.

The trouble is that you won't know what charge they're going to bring until you've committed yourself to a court appearance. I'm also aware (from the ABD website) that some changes have been made in this area.

Mooncat! Sounds like you have done your homework. I hope you will fight this prosecution in Court, as it looks as if you have a good chance of winning. I would however consult a solicitor with your evidence, especially if you have not been to magistrates' court before, even if you represent yourself in court instead of taking your solicitor along. If you win your case, you will be awarded travelling costs and the cost of any photos you took, just as I was. In addition, you will be able to claim the cost of a solicitor's consultation. Good luck!