Safe Speed Forums

it'll be hard wired.... and i don't think cycle computers have any EM shielding requirements !

Actually, even some electronic systems without RF links can be badly effected by strong RF fields.

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/

yes.. but automotive standards are considerably higher than cycle computers!

I am Paul Kirby ,the driver in this case. I thought it might further debate if I added some points ,without wishing to respond to one particular posting. I will also try and keep it balanced.

1. I had problems before I went to Cornwall with computer readings. I had the car re-booted,the tangible issues corrected. I assumed all was well.As I usually do 5/10 mile runs I had not noticed before that the speed recording could have been in doubt.

2. 99% Of the time I am in the car alone.On this trip I had a full load of fishing gear and a teenager, I thought it was going well, but put it down to extra weight,full tank etc.I had also just had a full service.

3.The 73/76 in a 50 were temp road works on Mway before 7 in the morning[no excuse I know] I did not see either speed camera and both were on down hills.The 95 in 70 is a fair cop,I was aiming to do 80 at that point.

4. I was going by the traditional clock /needle.In the digital read it was 20 or so higher.The dealer report satisfied the court that there was a disparity between the visual read and the computer recording.All the % excess are the same[ish].I offered to hand the car over to the court for forensic,kept the car off the road so they could do so, but they refused.

5.I have been driving for 35 years and no driving convictions at all. In that time I have had L.E. RX7/M5/AMG Merc.My attention these days is on the MPG recording,something I think played a part in all this. Before I went it was showing 83 to a gallon, but after re-boot and going on this run,it was normal around 52

6.I was encouraged to not send NIPS and lie to get out of this but refused and played it straight as I thought I had a honest case.I had no legal advice with me in court.


7.Even though they accepted my side, they still gave me the most they could,The reporter had been tipped off,the CPS guy asked for the biggest fine , it was nothing to with safety.I asked to be left with 9 points on my license [they could do this if the 2 offences that were 22 mins apart was counted as one]and no ban to prove how safe I could be knowing one slip up would loose my license,but they werent interested,it was cash they wanted

8. I have effectively lost my livelyhood for 6 months. If I had been stoped by police ,or even been at home to see the first NIP arrive I would have had chance to correct my behaviour.

As part of my business I read body language eye movements etc. The CPS guy did not look me in the eye,covered his face when the penalties were read out and generally looked like a younger brother telling mom and dad tales to get elder brother in trouble.When he could see Mom and Dad were buying his story he added a bit more just to make absolutely sure.

I dont know if I should appeal, but I do have a very cheap Mercedes on Ebay!

Paul Kirby

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PKIRBY

Very nice to hear it from the horse's mouth.

Hey Paul, sorry to hear you're gonna struggle due to the ban.

I would never expect to see a magistrates' court not convict over something like this, they simply don't have the time, recources or expertise to get into technical matters. Whilst it is not just (reasonable doubt unsatisfied), I rather suspect that they routinely convict in cases such as this just to foist the problem onto a higher court.

Something I've been wondering recently is whether admitting one had not gone below the speed limit for the entire period of the offences, thus making them all a single offence, would be in any way beneficial. Given that speed, in and of itself, cannot constitute dangerous driving, would the courts have any legal mandate to bump up the penalty for 'prolonged speeding'? I certainly find it reasonable that two detections within 22 minutes, presumably in the same section of roadworks, should constitute one offence. Its all very well that the put more cameras throughout under the impression that it will slow people down more, but to issue, and convict, twice on that basis is rather naughty.

Thanks for your comments

With regard to two offences counting as one, something I asked for,this actually worked against me in the end.The CPS said that to have got between these 2 checkpoints in that time scale must have meant that I slowed down for the cameras and that my average speed must have been over 100. I knew I was doomed when the lead magistrate said that she used that stretch of road twice a day and that if she had got between those 2 points in that time it would have been the fastest she would ever have travelled in a car

So maybe a cautionary tale for someone reading this thinking of trying get 2into 1

Thanks

PAUL

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PKIRBY

True, but they can only go on the evidence presented to the court, and sentence within their remit.

That would assume the two clocks were linked to an atomic clock and set exactly the same.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Hi Anton

Yes that would be the case, but the effect the mere suggestion had in the court was tangible.I know only evidence produced and admissable can be used, but the effect was clear and bought a wry smile to Mr Pinzers face,which only increased when the lead magistrate made her speech about using the road daily.This of course came up at a time in the proceedings where I was most vulnerable.

On a more self indulgent note and to look forward, I am not sure wether to appeal or not.


Is this the right section on your board to ask that type of question?

Thanks in anticipation

Paul

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PKIRBY

Paul

Welcome and you have my absolute respect for posting on this matter. Without knowing the truth (obviously, as I wasn't there) I can't really comment, but if you're sure you're right then I would appeal.

I wonder if its not worth a trip over to www.pepipoo.com and post there - I believe they're quite hot on legal issues.

At any rate, if I were in your position and could afford to I would be seaking legal advise. If you can prove beyond doubt that the speedo was defective and you believed that the fault had been rectified, and also that your speed didn't actually constitute dangerous driving, then you might have a case.

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do. In the meat time, stick around and join in the debate!

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Welcome Paul

I have argued the result or type of sentence you have got 'till I'm blue in the face. You're not alone: Impeccable long good driving record but suddenly they've nailed another 'criminal' and screwed up your life.

A troll will tell you that you've screwed up your own life and that you're a maniac who deserves to be banned.

You will see the two basic arguments between trolls and Safe Speed comes down to: -

Troll - 'Slower is better'. 'There's no such thing as too slow'.

SafeSpeed - 'Safer is better'. 'An appropriate speed for the conditions'

I hope you stick around too.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

If you were to appeal... it would be at crown court
could they sentence you harder?
The ban could be suspended untill the appeal
You have to launch your appeal within 2 weeks (I believe)
You need a good solicitor ... have you got deep pockets or as it affects Your livley hood can you get legal aid
You could appeal against your guilt and/or the severity of your sentance.
It could create a precident that would be persuasive but not binding on lower courts.
You would need to prove that the two gatsos were not set on the same exact time. Plod would be likley to "correct" the time before they were inspected. and they may have gone off for maintanance/ callibration by now.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

It is my understanding that they cannot increase the punishment on a defence appeal, although the costs would increase.

If you have legal cover in insurace premiums (even home insurance) they might cover the cost of an appeal. It's worth finding out.

By the way, the magistrate woh gave her "expert" opinion might have been out of order, there. She is there to give judgment, not pretend to have expertise in matters before her. This might need to be checked out as grounds for an appeal. Her opiinon is only that, an opinion. She might be wrong.

Good luck with any appeal.

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/

Hi

I just wanted to say that I am watching the replies and ideas and I appreciate them. I think I will let the debate run for a day before commenting then let everyone know what I propose to do.

One thing I am sure of is that the ban/fine points will stand pending an appeal, £5000 is the best circa offer I could find for legal costs,they cannot increase my penalty, but the system seems geared to put me off an appeal[especially as I had 4 offences] although they have to be seen to leave the door a little open.

I cant appeal against the indignity of a photgrapher jumping out from behind a bush,or my mother seeing the detail in our local paper before I could get to her,let alone local clients etc. For some reason I have now been in 17 newspapers. Also in April last year I overtook and arrested a drunk /drug driver who would have killed someone according to the police helicopter pictures. I tried to stop her for her sake initially.She was 3 times over and full of a class A drug.I got police reccomendation letter and threats from her husband. Nothing in papers. End of poor me bit ,will focus on appeal,or not?

Paul

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PKIRBY

Hi Paul!

As mentioned, PePiPoo is a good place for legal related information.

I would be wondering...

Are/were the speed limits correct? Were the signs correct?
Especially if they are/were for road works then, well, it has been known for them to be wrong...

I would ask the council/s involved for a copy of the speed limit order/s.

If they are for road works and are still there then take photos of the signs you passed as soon as possible just in case!

The article says that Gatsos were involved, is that right? Were they on a bend?

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Andrew.

Hi Andrew

I have noted your questions as I think they will be useful if I appeal.

I am not sure of some of the answers but....... In the roadworks for the two offences 73 and 76 the limit was 50 [temp] they have gone now, both on down hills ,I am not sure if they were correct,I know this doesnt sound good but I dont remember seeing them at all? no flashes?

Sorry, not sure about the gatso questions, but 40/30 was a yellow jobbie that two weeks after had a black hood over.

Thanks

Paul

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PKIRBY

Newspapers like to say "gatso" where they mean "speed camera of some kind".
They all work slightly differently.

A speed limit is not a set of signs, it is a legal document which happens to require the correct signs in the correct place. If the signs or document were wrong then there was no speed limit. So it would be worth asking for the speed limit orders just in case they made a mistake. Like, for example, saying that the limit ends at the junction with "Sea Road" when no such road exists... (Chideock)
The 70mph limit will be the national speed limit, so no signs or specific document are required.

I know of someone who was 'got' by an LTI 20/20 laser speed meter when driving down hill, and I believe he won in court, although I can't quite remember why. (and it was very technical!) I do remember that the down-hill bit was important.

I don't know what you can challenge on an appeal though.

What I'm getting at is if the speed limit didn't exist (legally) then they can't charge you with exceeding it.

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Andrew.

In my experience it's cheaper to bendover.

ie; They make you attend court....miles away.. which means a day off work & travelling. Then they (in my opinion, deliberately) adjourn it. Which means another day off work (more lost money) and more travelling.

rinse & repeat etc etc.

And the buggerz still nick you anyway.

Sorry dude. You DO have my sympathy.

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The Box said "Windows XP or better" ... So I installed Ubuntu