Safe Speed Forums

So given a choice, you would rather exceed the speed limit, pay the fines, and risk your license, rather than drive slightly more slowly, save on the fines and keep your license. How irrational. I wonder if you'll feel the same way when you lose your license ?

Inky, I am starting to suspect that you are an inflammatory troll. However, I take offence to you calling someone close to me 'stupid', especially when you are clearly ignorant of some of the tactics used to catch so called 'speeders'.

On 30th December 2003, a member of my family was caught by a manually operated laser speed trap/video camera. The area being policed was a road where a temporary limit had been set up for roadworks. The road was a dual carriageway which normally had a 60MPH limit, reduced to 40.

The directive permitting the temporary reduction covered an area of almost two miles. However at no time were all two miles of road subject to coning off or works. On this particular day the roadworks ended almost a mile from where the final derestriction sign had been placed.

Guess where the trap was laid - 100 yards after the derestriction sign at a point where they could see cars approaching the signs and catch them accelerating (I know this because I have seen the video evidence!!).

The drivers were being caught in an area that was normally deemed safe for driving at 60, but thanks to legal jiggery-pokery could have a lower limit placed on it for that occasion. All very legal but highly immoral.

Several newspapers reported that 300 people were caught by that trap in the space of one hour on that day.

I'm sure those 300 would like to know the person on here who thinks they are 'stupid'.

Perhaps their experience will teach them the importance of observation. Road signs aren't just there for decoration, you know.

And in this particular case the drivers weren't even caught by a speed camera, but by flesh-and-blood traffic police...

Evil Inked Up One!

I use Road Angel in the the old crocks - Moggie's speedo reads 30 - Road Angel reads 25/26. This discrepancy goes across the old lady's speedo range!

The Stag (brag - one of the first to roll out of the factory!) - her speedo the same! The other Stag in the family (one of last to be made - brag! has similar problem.

The other BabeMobiles in the family (Heralds, MGs, and the "Ox-bridges" ) all show similar readings between car's own speedo and extremely accurate GPS reading!

But these cars (owned collectively by this large family of car fanatics) are all 60s/70s classics, and only come out for special occasions! 8)

My mother's Vx Vectra is 5 years old. We had the speedo checked at the garage as we found that GPs (origin) speedo reading showed discrepancy of 6mph which increased as car's velocity increased. After a re-calibration this vehicle's speedo remains at 3mph below the car's own reading across the speed range.

The Jags (S-Type and X-Type) - 12 months and 5 months respectively both speedo's are 3mph below the origin b2's GPS reading across its speeds!

We also find that these GPS gadgets are very useful (not as scam and hazard detectors) but as indicator of how much your speed will vary on any given journey! If you were to purchase one, I think you would have a shock as to how frequently you drift up to 3mph above a speed limit.

So - you may smugly think that your speedo in your Corolla is deadly accurate, and that you never ever speed, but PC Gatso knows different! Think based on my Ma's experience with her Vectra - you'd better get it checked!

Look forward to hearing you change your tune when you are copped

(Have had these gadgets tested by BiB's laser and by Gatso! - As another member of this family is a Road Safety Wally, and some are BiBs! )

This is how we know the GPS reads more accurately than the car's own speedo!

...and in this particular case they weren't there for safety either, unless you concede that the 'tactic' was fair. Misuse of information designed for another purpose discredits that information. There was no safety issue involved, and on another day the same people could not have been prosecuted for precisely the same action.

You come across as intelligent inky, but you are a simpleton. Simplistic in your interpretation of the purpose of the law, and simplistic in your analysis of the reasons for speed restriction.

IMHO that makes you dangerous for reasons Paul has already specified.

A surprising number of folk speed up when they see the increased limit in the near distance. Of course Inked Up One - this is SCAM - because there is no danger, nor recent KSI on the immediate stretch preceding it. If there were - do you really think they would increase speed limit?

Roadworks are classic examples of this type of scam! Observation - well they observed the sign showing the increased speed limit - but acted a few yards prematurely! Hardly a dangerous speeding offence! Even in Switzerland (very tough on speed enforcement) they do not do this! (The wife is half a Swiss cheese short of a full one!).

"Signs are not there for decoration" So they hide the scam sign, and in Lancs a fave trick is not to replace signs at all, have blank and faded repeater signs, hide scams behind bus shelters, sign posts and the like!
Lancs downgrade roads, do not replace all signs and whack up scam to enforce new limit! Most of these roads are dual carriageways with no serious accident history! A591 (our main road to civilisation!) - zaps 20mph limit for 2 miles, and retains 30mph limit on Ambleside High Street! No scams on the High Street - but lots of hidden talivans in the lo-ong 20mph stretch beyond the village!

A surprising number of folk do not see a speed limit sign if new to an area as well!

Stilll - you are very complacent. You say your speedo is accurate. You exceeded a speed limit in the past but never ever do so now? You a robot?

As said - advanced driver - but would never ever say categorically that I never ever drift over the speed limit! Not that big -headed, ignorant, or daft!

Simply do not believe you and look forward to day when you get rude awakening! By PC Gatso!

Edited to add: rc11co - C'mon! Evil Inked Up One hardly comes across as intelligent - simple, dangerous, complacent and stoopid more like!

Evil Inky One

Having read the other posts it would appear you have a decidedly blinkered view on speeding. Speed camera are now used as a form of tax raising - being located in sneaky places on good safe road. This is why so many people have points on there licence. People are not stupid as you put it. People that believe that as they don't speed they are safe are probably the most dangerous as they generally have no enjoyment of driving and knowledge about driving. I have probably exceeded the limit now and again but having advanced driver training, knowledge of the physics/mechanic of grip, road conditions, hazard perception etc. have done so quite safely. It would appear your statements are somewhat shallow and lack understanding. If a young child runs out from behind parked cars and one hits him at 30mph, is your defence 'I wasn't breaking the speed limit?' Rather you should have recognised the parked cars, residential area and driven accordingly.

Paul didn't actually specify the reason(s) he thinks I'm a dangerous driver, but since he, you, and Mad Moggie ( who thinks I'm "stoopid" to boot ) agree that I'm a dangerous driver, then perhaps there's something about my approach to driving that requires attention. I'm obviously a disaster waiting to happen, and it can only be a matter of time before I mount the pavement and wipe out an entire bus queue.

Maybe of you you square-jawed, steely-eyed macho advanced drivers could point out where I going wrong ? Up to now, I'd treated speed limits as an absolute, just like maximum blood-alcohol levels, or minimum tyre tread depths. I imagined that drifting over the speed limit was akin to drifting into the crash barriers, or letting my tyre treads drift below the minimum depth.

Now, I must have be going wrong somewhere, but the Highway Code wasn't much help: it appeared to treat speed limits as absolute limits too. Since I always assumed that the Highway Code was some sort of official guide to the rules of the road and safe driving I was somewhat disappointed; perhaps this very guide was the origin of my dangerous attitude to driving.

So please, someone help me out, where am I ( and the Highway Code ) going so badly wrong ? I'm keeping my driving to a minimum ( I prefer cycling, anyway ) until I receive some advice.

Just because I don't exceed the speed limit, doesn't mean I don't slow down when necessary - where did you get that idea from ?

...and this is where your argument will stand or fall. It only stands if the limits that you set or have had imposed on you actually serve the purpose they purport to. I have stated twice in this thread now that often speed limits are set much lower than is necessary for driving to be safe yet you completely fail to address that issue in your replies.

Where limits exist that are clearly too low, intelligent people should and will question their purpose, and the true purpose of the guidance will be lost - read this humorous illustration of the point... http://www.abd.org.uk/ht-kills.htm

There is a misconception, based on simplistic thinking, that lower speeds automatically mean safer roads as impacts will be less severe. If you subscribe to this belief then you label yourself as incompetent as you clearly fail to understand that there is a lot more to avoiding accidents than simply driving at a posted limit set for often arbitrary (or sometimes nefarious) reasons.

I don't base this on mere conjecture but on the evidence of years of study (if you have never heard of the 85th percentile speed, then go read up, come back to us and prove your aren't blinkered and stupid).



Here are some places to start...

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/rules.html

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/speedlimits.html

I ask you to pay particular attention to the second one before repeating accusations such as...



My personal concern is that lives will be lost as a result of the misuse and abuse of speed limit and safety information by individuals with a vested interest in catching people speeding rather than preventing them from driving at excessive speeds.

Evil Inked Up One - from colleague in A&E and from my wife's cousin who is A&E consultant in busy London hospital - you would be surprised at the number of folk who do kill kids as jwo outlines! The accident investigator confirms - they were driving at the speed limit. We have even heard these people say they were watching their speedo rather than the hazards ahead in some of the more draconian regions! (From colleague in neighbouring Lancs!).

I see so many people charging up and down residentials as rat runs and have argued that that is where talivans should be - and not at the fleece spots where they currently are! After all - that is where you come across the vulnerable!

Incidentally do you drive along these looking beneath the parked cars? I always make cursory glance on initial approach for traces of a football or feet - and have never ever driven faster than 15mph on these roads in any case!

As said - live in Lakes - on beaten track. We have a very long driveway to our house - owned freehold. This morning, my wife left for work. When she reached the end of our driveway - she found it was blocked ....by a talivan. This is OUR PRIVATE LAND and we had given NO permission to the Partnership concerned to stop there - causing a nuisance and a hazard to our property - on which we pay bucketloads of Council Tax! Road in question moves from 40mph to 30mph at that stretch but is just 100 yards from NSL zone! Man in talivan claimed he did not know it was private land - despite the sign! Anyway - he did move it - grudgingly, and parked it in the National Trust carpark further up the road - but in less lucrative spot! You tell me that this is in interests of safety only? Nope! This was definitely an attempt to extort money from safe drivers approaching a fast and very safe stretch of road - and I have sent strongly worded letter to the authorities over it!

You keep on bangin' on that you never ever break the speed limit - yet you could be - if you aging speedo has not been calibrated! Like I said - get a GPS which shows your speed on your dash - you will be amazed at how you will fluctuate on a very short drive!

You compare drifting over a speed limit by say 1-4mph with letting your tyres drift below minimum tread. That is illogical comparison - as you are comparing tangible with intangible! You physically check your tyres daily. A just over drift occurs in the course of driving and can have more to do with a road surface than deliberate pressing of throttle! Same with alcohol. As BLOOD specialist - I would not consider behind the wheel at all after any one drink. Again - your analogy has zero bearing on just-over drift argument! Your mushy muesli munching muddled thinking - Evil Inked Up One!

You are very vulnerable to a just over drift - just like every other driver on the planet! We find that car will fluctuate from 3mph under to 3 mph over on any given drive - and this will be due to cambers, polish on worn surfaces, crowns of bends, type of surfacing used. The problem is that the Scammers know where to place the scams to achieve result of persecution at 1mph over in case of Lancs!

Because you seem incapable of acknowledging this fact - based on physics and basic car mechanics is why I can judge you to be a bit "stoopid!"


You say you know the HC? Bet if I were to post a quiz - you would have to look up the answers!

The way I used to deal with this was to drive at, say, 5mph under the limit to leave myself a safety margin. I've since learned of course that this is a terribly dangerous ( and "stoopid" way to drive ). I thank my lucky stars that I wised up before someone was hurt by my actions.


I thought you disapproved of the HC ? It's very strict about speed limits, and it was following that advice that turned me into the dangerous driver I am today

Evil Inked Up One

I never said I disapproved of the HC! Where in my postings does it say this! We said there is strong possibility of just-over driftings at the fleece spots (which are not blackspots!)

If you want to look at the gang's HC quiz - you will find a version on bogush Mann's "It's Your Duty" site where my mad wife's family posted one! Most on there admitted they could not answer their questions on braking and stopping distances at 130mph! - but one of them is ex F3!) ) Cannot remember which thread they placed it on - think it was "bogush wants a 60mph speed limit on the Notss Ring Road!"


So you are the numpty who holds the traffic up at 25mph on all the 30 mph roads! That is not driving to road conditions - and if your Corolla's speedo is the norm -- you are actually driving at ca 22mph! When my speedo is at 30mph - GPS registers 27mph.

Driving at too low a speed is just as dangerous as driving at 10mph over posted! This is backed up by RoSPA and IAM - not the Paul Smiths of this world who are saying this!

I think you had better check out your local driving school and book some brush-up your skills lessons as I think you really do need to learn how to drive at appropriate speed!

Still missing the point, aren't we!!??

The Highway Code indicates that a range of speed limits can be imposed. Common sense tells us that the sliding scale exists to reflect the 'danger' involved in terms of the type of road, local hazards, etc. The Highway Code, however, isn't law. It is a starting point for people to understand the basics. The law is a bit more complex...

http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm

We trust (and have been able to do so with some faith until now) the authorities to post appropriate speed limits within the law. There have, however, been some recent high profile cases were local authorities have destroyed that trust and illegally imposed (lower) speed limits.

However, I regarded you as a dangerous thinker rather than a dangerous driver in that you seem to swallow simplistic arguments and follow guidelines without reconciling in your own mind whether or not they have any value.

If you don't mind me saying so, you don't seem to be too keen on Section 103, which states that "You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your vehicle".



To be honest, participating in this forum could be enough to put me off driving for good. If simply erring on the side of caution actually makes me more dangerous, I'm probably better off on the bus.

The point you seem to be consistently missing is that excessive attention to speed limit necessarily implies reduced attention to "something else". If that something else turns out to be an urgent and immediate danger then risk is increased.

There's nothing wrong with sticking to the speed limit, but it's no guarantee of safety, and if we get too obsessive about it danger will increase.

I believe nationally we have already passed that point and woken that tiger.

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/tiger.html

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Being over cautious when engaged in any potentially risky activity is indeed dangerous if you are exercising that caution as a result of a lack of confidence in your own ability or a lack of information as to the consequences of your actions (postive or negative), or for that matter if you are paying a disproportionate amount of attention to a factor that (due to misinformation or ignorance) you consider more likely to lead to a dangerous outcome than it really does and as a result you miss something genuinely critical (as Paul states!).

Worse still is when fear of the wrath of the law is what causes you to give this less significant danger a disproportionate amount of attention, and death or injury results.

So, perhaps by drawing the above conclusion you are admitting that you aren't as smart as you think you are if you hadn't thought this argument out properly, so it might be the most accurate and true thing you've said so far.

Well If we have one less numpty who drives inappropriately at 22mph (with speedo registering 25mph) - then HURRAH!



rc11co rightly points you in direction of the ABD regarding speed limits and their logic/illogic. I can point you at the A591 in Cumbria - long long 20mph stretch extending far beyond the danger point (which is correctly reduced near the NT car parks!) on each side of Ambleside, and yet 30mph through the High Street where the J-walking tourists and ramblers amble along! Hardly logical! I can also point you at a growing number of dual carriageways in Lancashire which have had speed limits reduced for no apparent reason, and the limit enforced by camera - against the guidelines! The are others in Notts (A610 comes to mind!), and a perusal of other forums will list many more! It is illogical to think that 40mph on the A583 is safe one week and illegal and dangerous the next! Especially when no-one can recall any accident serious or otherwise in recent history!

There is another site "Speed Limit" which focuses on Greater Manchester's problems. The chap (another ABD advanced bod) has written some marvellous, fair-minded essays on the subject. It would be worth your while taking a peek at these!

You say I am not keen on Section 103? In one of my posts I did say that in general - this gang drive according to rules. We get our so-called "speed buzz" on track days (and German A/Bahns ) We do acknowledge though, that we will have fluctuated to between 3mph under to ca 4-5mph over on any one journey - because we are not robots, neither are we complacent nor dishonest, nor daft enough to think so!, and there will be road cambers and varying surfaces which will have affected speed that way. We have GPS in car (b2 has overspeed warnings set) and the Jags have Cruise Controls anyway - which we do use on occasion but prefer not to as this removes the skill and control! Because we drive at full concentration - evaluate our driving as well, any blip is tightened up immediately anyway!

Is this true about your driving standards - given that you do not appear to have taken up any further training!

Why not take a look at the driver training threads on here? Think you will gain further insight there!

Don't celebrate just yet: when the weather doesn't consist of driving sleet, I much prefer to cycle than go by bus, and I can't keep up 22mph on the bike for long...



The only training I've taken after passing my test was an hour's instruction on the motorway. And since I only passed my test on the sixth attempt, I've never actually claimed I'm any great shakes as a driver. Up to now I would have described myself as slow and steady, but since I have realised I'm a danger to the public, I think driving is probably something best left to other people.

It's somewhat ironic to come onto a hardcore petrolhead site, and come away with the recommendation to go car-free, but then life's full of little suprises, isn't ?

At last! Extracted from you - one hour's driving tuition on the M/way!

Would not knock anyone who took 6 attempts - mate! Lots of good drivers out there who had many more than one attempt! All part of the learning process - and for some that L-test is one long nervous ordeal for some reason! I think you suffer badly from nerves more than anything else given your ramblings Oh Inked Up Evil One! (See I am generous to "lesser mortals!" )

Seriously - I think you would benefit from some extra training. Lots of ADIs out there would be more than happy to "deprive" you of some of your cash in a good cause! Check out your local IAM branch as well! You can drive too slow as well as too fast - you know!

You learn all the time! Passing your L-Test is just the beginning of one long learning curve, Evil Inked Up One! So check out the driving manuals ("Roadcraft" springs to mind) and then go see about some courses to gain your confidence!