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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:51 
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I knew they were going to make the banding retrospective which is why I wouldn't buy a post March 2001 car. Mine are all pre that date so I pay a flat rate of £185 a year for each. Got a pre 1972 classic too which costs zip in VED. Makes me chuckle to think it costs less for me to have turbo monsters that do 20 mpg than a ford mondeo or some mpv :twisted: My mileage isn't great either so I think it should all be put on fuel which is the fairest way of doing it as it is pay per use and usage depends on driving style and type of commute. Also all tax from fuel should be used to fund transport and nothing else. Road, rail, air and buses should all pay the same percentage of fuel costs as tax so the playing field is level and the most efficient forms of transport would become the cheapest to use. Bet it is the private car...followed by air with trains and buses coming up an expensive last. It also follows the polluter pays principal too.

I can't see all the pikeys suddenly coughing up for higher VED for their X5s. If anything VED evasion will increase to the point where it becomes impossible to enforce. Motorists and ordinary families will only put up with so much crap before they ignore the law altogether and join the chavs.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 18:20 
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I wonder how feasible it would be to get your car registered in France in order to evade this immoral tax? Would it just be a matter of popping over the Channel once a year for a French MOT?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 19:25 
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Budget 2008: Higher tax for 9 in 10 drivers
By Robert Winnett, Deputy Political Editor
Last Updated: 2:21am GMT 14/03/2008

The full scale of the clampdown on middle-class motorists has become clear after it emerged that nine in 10 cars will be affected by higher rates of tax under plans announced in the Budget.

Analysis shows that over the next two years, millions of drivers will face soaring bills as road tax on some popular family models doubles.

However, duty on Rolls Royces and Porsches will rise by less than the typical family saloon - undermining claims that the taxes are meant for gas guzzlers.

The Treasury will net more than £1 billion from the tax grab - which includes a "showroom tax" of up to £950 - over the next three years.

The middle classes already face above-inflation increases on their energy bills, grocery shopping and mortgage costs.

Millions of people have little choice but to drive to work or school because of the poor state of public transport.

Pressure was building on Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, amid claims that the Treasury rushed through the new road tax system without studying the implications.

The president of the AA said that he had a meeting with the Treasury last week, at which point the new regime had not been drawn up.

Mr Darling is already struggling to restore his political reputation after having to undo hasty changes he proposed to capital gains tax and the taxation of non-domiciles.

A Labour insider admitted that of the two main Budget tax measures - alcohol and motoring - the assault on drivers could prove most damaging.

He said: "When you start clobbering families for driving a run-of-the-mill car or people carrier then people will start to notice and that could cause us difficulties."

The fact that the tax applies to people who may keep the same car for five years - not simply those with new models - has also been noted by senior Government figures.

The research, by the TaxPayers' Alliance (TPA), shows that tax on 88 per cent of models will rise and only nine per cent of vehicles will benefit from the new system. Popular family cars are the biggest losers.

Mr Darling is accused of misleading motorists, as he said the changes were ostensibly to target "gas-guzzlers".

The Budget states: "As a result of these reforms, the majority of motorists will be better or no worse off in 2009." But the analysis shows family car drivers suffer more than those with luxury vehicles.

For example, the tax on a Vauxhall Astra 2.0i 16v or Saab 9-3 MY2008 will more than double from £210 to £430. The owner of a Ford Focus 1.6 Duratec will pay 59 per cent more (£170 to £270), and tax on a Citroen Xsara Picasso will rise by 48 per cent to £310.

In contrast, over the past five years the duty on these vehicles rose only 30 per cent. Even drivers of Nissan Micras face a 24 per cent rise - from £145 to £180 - compared to 16 per cent over the past five years. But the tax on a Rolls-Royce Phantom, a Hummer H3 or Porsche Cayenne GTS will rise by only 13.75 per cent, from £400 to £455.

Matthew Elliott, of the TPA, said: "This was dressed up as a measure to only punish extravagant cars, but it will hit the great majority of models.

"Alistair Darling may have claimed high moral motives, but this is just a grubby tax grab that will hit millions of ordinary families."

Cars will be divided into 13 groups for road tax purposes depending on their CO2 emissions. Annual road tax will then be charged at up to £440 for cars such as Jaguars, Range Rovers and even some people carriers, emitting more than 255g of CO2 per kilometre.

Cars producing less than 100g will not be taxed.

At present, there are seven bands, with the least green vehicles paying £400. Some family cars will move up several bands.

From 2010, there will also be a higher first year rate - showroom tax - for new cars. This will be levied on all cars emitting more than 130g of CO2 and varies from £115 to £950.

Models attracting the £950 charge include Volkswagen Touaregs, Audi A6 and A8s and Volvo V70s. Those in the next band - paying £750 - include Vauxhall Vectras, Mercedes M and E class estates, and Mitsubishi Shoguns.

Edmund King, of the AA, said the changes were rushed through and affected more vehicles than intended.

"We had a meeting with Angela Eagle [a Treasury minister] just 10 days ago and they appeared to have only started to think about it. They rushed into this without thinking through the implications - it's a bit of a cock-up."

Motoring groups said the increases would dent the second-hand value of large family cars, 4x4s and sports cars and companies are expected to sell thousands of fleet cars.

However, cars made before 2001 are excluded from the banding system and owners will pay a flat rate of £200, which will rise with inflation.

A Treasury spokesman said: "As a result of the changes, next year the majority of motorists will be no worse off. The third of people who drive the cleanest cars will be better off.

"The Budget announced changes to cut carbon emissions across the board, and encouraging people to buy cleaner cars is an important part of that."

The Treasury said the TPA numbers were based on total models in production and did not reflect what people actually drove.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 19:34 
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However, cars made before 2001 are excluded from the banding system and owners will pay a flat rate of £200, which will rise with inflation.


So it looks like the residual value of pre-2001 cars is about to go up, and anything post 2001 in a high tax band will be worthless. I wonder how many people will be "cloning" their newer cars into pre 01 versions by buying a scrapper and swapping plates over.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 19:46 
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If they where that bothered about CO2 they would consider the dust to dust carbon ass print of the cars.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 19:50 
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I think you'll find that the MOT test will remove large numbers of pre-2001 cars before long. Once they get put on the "shaker" they will be trashed before long....
On that subject, I noted that an mot station near me had closed. I asked the guy in the other station, a mile away, and he said it was because they were so close together so one had to close. It makes getting my m/bike mot'ed hard work....the next station that does bikes is 6 miles away.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 20:39 
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So in addition to not being able to afford a family home, a working class family are denied a half decent family car as well now?

As much as I try to convince myself it's just my nihilistic outlook, this country really does seem to get sh*ttier every passing day.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 00:32 
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hairyben wrote:
So in addition to not being able to afford a family home, a working class family are denied a half decent family car as well now?



As the article says, it is just a grubby tax grab. The VED banding was rejigged, Darling looked at the greatly increased bottom line and signed it off without any further consideration.

It was not well thought out and is typical of Labour's ever-increasing arrogance.

Applying the tax retroactively to 2001-2006 cars in the "small print" while claiming the tax changes are purely intended to shift NEW purchases towards lower-emission cars was deceitful and callous. A spit in the eye for already financially pressured working class families who can't afford £20,000+ for a brand new "Green" car.

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Last edited by antera309 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 16:15, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 01:56 
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The tide is turning on the 'climate change' issue. More and more proper science is being published that either debunks the pseudoscience of the tree-huggers or provides evidence to show that we are not in some sort of environmental meltdown.

There are a lot of eminent red faces wandering the halls of universities around the world, wondering where the next research grant is coming from as 'Erectile Dysfunction In Northern European Dormice With Reference To Climate Change' ain't going to net them diddly-squat soon, let alone the ten mil they need for that new gene-splicer thingy.

Taxing us for our own good is soon to be a thing of the past and Eyebrow Boy is doing some last-minute extra-hard tit pulling on the cash-cow. Fuel will rattle up in price as they try go rake in as much as they can before the bubble bursts.

I seem to remember, some time ago, a brilliant suggestion of organising a week in which everybody uses public transport for every journey they make - the estimate was that, by Thursday, people from Tuesday would still be trying to get home...

This government detests the individual and the freedoms of the individual. They use taxation and fines in place of workable legislation and invent useless laws and proclamations at such a rate that we are all now criminals waiting to be caught.

This assault on public freedom has led to the slowly rising tide of Englishmen, Scotsmen, Welshmen and Irishmen abandoning their homelands for pastures new in an escape from the neo-fascist oppression we now live under.

I love my country, but I hate living in it...

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 02:12 
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Aquila wrote:

There are a lot of eminent red faces wandering the halls of universities around the world, wondering where the next research grant is coming from as 'Erectile Dysfunction In Northern European Dormice With Reference To Climate Change' ain't going to net them diddly-squat soon, let alone the ten mil they need for that new gene-splicer thingy.


:clap: :clap: As an academic I cannot agree more!

Aquila wrote:
This government detests the individual and the freedoms of the individual. They use taxation and fines in place of workable legislation and invent useless laws and proclamations at such a rate that we are all now criminals waiting to be caught.


Sadly, it is not JUST this government, bit our other parties also suffer from illusion that the solution to all life's problems is regulation...

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 02:36 
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prof beard wrote:

Sadly, it is not JUST this government, bit our other parties also suffer from illusion that the solution to all life's problems is regulation...


Well remarked, sir!

As an Englishman, I labour under the vain hope that the next government will, in some way, be more tolerable than the previous. I do this according to my national conditioning - we are a nation of Micawbers (?sp.)
I am very certain, however, that my bones will not rest in my home soil, but will be interred in some foreign place that will forever be Ex-Pat...

Some wit (probably Wilde) noted that the worst sort of person to allow to be a politician was someone who actually wanted to be a politician.

Nary a truer word spoke in jest...

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 02:54 
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The old phrase: "Taxed To death" suddenly has meaning.................


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:54 
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Daily Telegraph

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Budget 2008: Families to suffer as Budget threatens the value of larger cars
By Harry Wallop, Consumer Affairs Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:42am GMT 15/03/2008

Families who sell their cars on the second-hand market face significant losses as a result of changes to road tax introduced by Alistair Darling in this week's Budget.

The value of many larger cars, essential for families with children, could fall substantially because of their higher running costs, experts said. This would leave many owners considerably out of pocket. Three out of every four cars sold in Britain are sold on the second-hand market.

The changes to the vehicle excise duty were announced by the Chancellor "to encourage manufacturers to produce cleaner cars".

However, the changes in duty affect all cars, new and old. A Vauxhall Zafira made in 2001, for instance, and specifically marketed at families, will see its annual duty increase by £100 to £310.

A Ford Mondeo 2.0i 16v estate, will also see its duty increase by £100 to £310 a year.

The motoring group AA said owners would be hit doubly hard. Not only would their running costs increase, but their sale values would fall.

Edmund King, the AA president, said some larger cars "could fall in value by 15 per cent". He said: "Certain models will become hard to sell. There will be tens of thousands of families that need a large car to fit three car seats.

"They have low mileage and keep it for five or six years - that's good for the environment. Now they will be hit not only by a 50 per cent increase in road tax, they will also find their car worth far less."

Many owners of larger cars expressed their horror as the full implications of the changes to the tax regime started to emerge. The Daily Telegraph told yesterday how nine out of 10 drivers faced higher vehicle excise duty.

Mark Osland, an independent financial adviser from Surrey, owns a second-hand 2001 Land Rover Discovery - big enough for his three children, a dog and the sports euipment his family uses.

"This was sold in the Budget as a tax on new cars. It is not at all. It is a retrospective tax," he said.

"I have no problem with taxes going up on the forecourt. If you are buying a car you can make a choice. But it is disgraceful that my tax is going up from £310 to £410, even though I bought this car 18 months ago.

"I am sure this is going to affect my resale value. I had hoped to sell it this year for about £6,500."

A leading car research company, Glass's, which values second-hand cars, said values of vehicles had yet to start falling.

Adrian Rushmore, the managing editor of the company, said: "The rising cost of motoring is becoming a very big issue.

"The cumulative effect of higher fuel prices and higher vehicle excise duty will dissuade people from buying bigger-engined cars. And that will cause prices to fall."

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 13:45 
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A Treasury spokesman said: "As a result of the changes, next year the majority of motorists will be no worse off.

Lovely Government doublespeak.

This might mean 51% of motorists will pay exactly the same while the other 49% collectively pay double what they did before thus greatly increasing the tax take.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:08 
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prof beard wrote:
Sadly, it is not JUST this government, bit our other parties also suffer from illusion that the solution to all life's problems is regulation...


Even more sadly, it's not just this country.

There's nowhere left to run.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 17:07 
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Aquila wrote:
The tide is turning on the 'climate change' issue. More and more proper science is being published that either debunks the pseudoscience of the tree-huggers or provides evidence to show that we are not in some sort of environmental meltdown.

There are a lot of eminent red faces wandering the halls of universities around the world, wondering where the next research grant is coming from as 'Erectile Dysfunction In Northern European Dormice With Reference To Climate Change' ain't going to net them diddly-squat soon, let alone the ten mil they need for that new gene-splicer thingy.

Taxing us for our own good is soon to be a thing of the past and Eyebrow Boy is doing some last-minute extra-hard tit pulling on the cash-cow. Fuel will rattle up in price as they try go rake in as much as they can before the bubble bursts.


I hope and I pray that you are right, Aquila. History tells us that Governments do eventually end up paying the price for their arrogance.



Aquila wrote:
I seem to remember, some time ago, a brilliant suggestion of organising a week in which everybody uses public transport for every journey they make - the estimate was that, by Thursday, people from Tuesday would still be trying to get home...

This government detests the individual and the freedoms of the individual.


The Government know very well that the current public transport system would not cope if even 10% of motorists gave up their cars. They know also that if 10% of commuters moved into the inner city, there would not be enough housing to go around. Their taxes are not about trying to change behaviours, they are about extracting money from people who have nothing more than a carefully-crafted illusion of a choice.


Aquila wrote:
This assault on public freedom has led to the slowly rising tide of Englishmen, Scotsmen, Welshmen and Irishmen abandoning their homelands for pastures new in an escape from the neo-fascist oppression we now live under.


The brain drain is very real, but its effects are being mitigated by skilled migrants from East Europe and India.

Having said that, if Labour win the next election I am gone. Simple as that.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 17:46 
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antera309 wrote:

Having said that, if Labour win the next election I am gone. Simple as that.


I think you will gone regardless - I see no sign that the current Tory party will change any of this...

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 19:55 
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Quote:
Budget 2008: Families to suffer as Budget threatens the value of larger cars
By Harry Wallop, Consumer Affairs Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:42am GMT 15/03/2008

Families who sell their cars on the second-hand market face significant losses as a result of changes to road tax introduced by Alistair Darling in this week's Budget.


Right that's it. The news is out. That's at least £2000 off the value of my 2003 Golf R32. Thanks Alistair, that was my deposit for a flat that was tied up in that car. Nice one. Much appreciated.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 21:38 
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My only actual suprise is I'm still paying £190 (or whatever) for my 3 litre van, as it's a commercial vehicle. Congestion charge still £8 too.

I suspect it's only a matter of time before they catch up with me, camden council include engine sizes and emmissions tax class on their tiered street permits, so I pay for the pollution my van causes when it's parked up at night. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:27 
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I gave up giving a toss about the environment when Brown put up fuel by another 2pence and said "it was to send out the right message" then got in is chauffeur driven Jag and drove 400 meters to Downing Street.

So as it stands, as long as I can keep my '98 1.4 litre hatch running I won't be too badly hit. But I looks like it will hurt when I do have to change it. Is it better for the enviroment (like I care anymore) to make do and mend, or get a "greener" car, whole life carbon emmisions and all that lot..? A new car will still need maintaining, so the extra tax I will have to pay for a newer one will keep the old one going that bit longer, right?

Please tesco's checkout lady, can I have extra plastic bags with my shopping please...


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