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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 09:26 
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'Go back to school' to avoid speeding fines
By David Millward, Transport Editor
Last Updated: 2:48am BST 14/04/2008

Speeding motorists will be allowed to avoid fines and points on their driving licence by choosing to undergo a "speed awareness course" under new police rules.

Usually, drivers face a £60 fine and three points on their licence.

The course, costing between £70 and £120, will involve classroom lessons giving tips on how to stick to the speed limit, such as saying 30mph out loud when passing a sign. Motorists will also be given driving simulator tuition where they will learn how to judge speed and spot hazards.

The option would apply to drivers who had been caught committing "marginal" speeding transgressions. In a 30mph limit, it would apply to those travelling between 35mph and 39mph.

It will be introduced in all 43 police areas over the next year.

Cathy Keeler, the head of campaigns at road safety charity Brake, welcomed the idea of awareness courses. But she said: "Penalty points should not be negotiable - the points system already allows a driver to get away with multiple offences before losing their licence.

"Speed awareness courses, fixed penalty points and fines must not be brought as an alternative to more serious charges, such as dangerous driving, when an offender has taken a blatant gamble with lives."

The new rules are unlikely to apply in areas where speed limits are higher and the offer will only be made to a motorist once in a three-year period.

Police will retain the right to prosecute - even in a 30mph zone - if there are aggravating factors, such as breaking the speed limit near a school.

More than 1.7 million speeding offences were caught on camera in 2005, latest official figures show.

Given that some drivers may have committed more than one offence, about a million motorists a year get points on their licence, say road safety experts. A sizeable proportion pick up points for speeding in urban areas and it is this group that is most likely to be given the option of going "back to school".

The Government is backing the scheme.

Despite insisting that the speed camera programme has saved lives, ministers are aware of its unpopularity with voters.

The scheme, entitled the National Speed Awareness Course, is already offered by some forces including Devon and Cornwall, Hertfordshire, Kent, Leicestershire, Norfolk and Warwickshire.

The AA said: "We are obviously pleased to see the national network of speed awareness courses completed. It means all marginal first-time speeders will be able to take a course and avoid penalty points.

"It also means that this option will be open to all drivers who commit offences away from their home areas to take courses near home."

But the Association of British Drivers said: "If these courses teach people to drive properly then they are a good idea.

"But if they just tell people to keep their eyes fixed on a speedometer and obsess about a number, then they are stupid.

"Driving safely is not just about sticking to the speed limit."

The use of the courses is the latest in a series of measures which attempt to convince drivers that cameras are neither a "stealth tax" nor part of a Government "war on the motorist".

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:25 
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Best answer to the cameras as revenue raisers is why don't they give the fines to the lottery fund or other charity if it isn't about raising money? If it isn't about the money then they'd be quite happy to give it away but watch them squirm and wriggle if you suggest this.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 23:27 
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I like the simulator idea - I've long been a fan of that BUT IT WOULD HAVE TO BE REALISTIC! I'm lousy at "arcade"-style driving games but rather better (I like to think, anyway!) in the real thing. It's just not the same, and I think that even drivers who don't realise it are taking in a fair number of almost subconscious cues when doing it for real.

...And I don't understand this bit at all:

"...Despite insisting that the speed camera programme has saved lives, ministers are aware of its unpopularity with voters...."

They ought to talk to Cumbria SCP - they've got LOADS of surveys that prove beyond all shadow of a doubt that the public are overwhelmingly in favour of cameras! :wink:

I just can't understand it!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 05:56 
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It's not just Cumbria SCP - ALL the SCP's use the same survey questions, drafted by the DfT, and get the same results!
Hardly surprising really when you read the questions! :o

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 09:03 
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Mole wrote:
I like the simulator idea - I've long been a fan of that BUT IT WOULD HAVE TO BE REALISTIC!


I wonder what car they are simulating?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:01 
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Cathy Keeler wrote:
Penalty points should not be negotiable - the points system already allows a driver to get away with multiple offences before losing their licence.


I would not see getting 3 points as getting away with it.

"Penalty points should not be negotiable - the points system already allows for a driver to be penalised for multiple technical offences before being executed."

OK, a little extreme but that is what it feels like to me sometimes.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:39 
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toltec wrote:
Mole wrote:
I like the simulator idea - I've long been a fan of that BUT IT WOULD HAVE TO BE REALISTIC!


I wonder what car they are simulating?


Not sure it would matter - these are only (as I understood the article) for speed & hazard perception training rather than car control so the particular handling characteristics shouldn't have a huge effect. Of course, the more realistic the better but I'd have thought that "on-the-limit" type stuff wouldn't be high on the curriculum!

I also think that in cars where passengers were being carried at the time of the offence, it would be a good idea to have the passengers in the simulator too. I think that peer pressure is one of the most powerful tools society has against the "boy racer" types. Just imagine how stupid they'd look in front of their mates after claiming to be a "driving god" when they fail to notice loads of hazards with their mates all watching!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 14:37 
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Mole wrote:
toltec wrote:
Mole wrote:
I like the simulator idea - I've long been a fan of that BUT IT WOULD HAVE TO BE REALISTIC!


I wonder what car they are simulating?


Not sure it would matter - these are only (as I understood the article) for speed & hazard perception training rather than car control so the particular handling characteristics shouldn't have a huge effect. Of course, the more realistic the better but I'd have thought that "on-the-limit" type stuff wouldn't be high on the curriculum!



I was thinking of size in the sense of how it might affect visibility of and from the vehicle. I also find my speed perception is different in different cars, for instance unless I make allowance for the vehicle I tend to drive faster in my wife's car than mine. Braking ability will also have an effect on when something becomes a potential hazard you have to start to allow for.

A friend of mine recently took his bike theory test, he passed the hazard test though not as well as he would have liked to. He thinks he might have identified some of the hazards too early or selected things he saw as potential hazards that the test did not as easily as missing them.

The idea of positive points for has been raised before, would it be a good idea if a driver could attend appropriate training to get points removed?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 14:52 
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Go to this site to see how these" courses" outside of the penalty points system are used to bleed the motorists!
http://patmosisland.net/


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 09:14 
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"The course, costing between £70 and £120, will involve classroom lessons giving tips on how to stick to the speed limit, such as saying 30mph out loud when passing a sign. Motorists will also be given driving simulator tuition where they will learn how to judge speed and spot hazards."
Good thing I had an empty stomach upon reading this.
Why would I want to go, or allow myself to be paced in, a so-called classroom designed to make me a WORSE driver?

As an American, I'd rather donate .. let's see ... as of today ... $140 to SafeSpeed, than to pay that much money to be 'taught' how to be more stupid than I was before I got pulled over. Coincidentally, $140 is the exact fine for driving anywhere between 11MpH and 30MpH over the posted 'limit' in New York State. (My present target date for this donation is June 25th.)

If they really, truly, didn't want you to drive above a certain speed in a given country, only a single line of programming would need to be changed. I.E., In Germany, the majority of cars are electronically top speed limited to either 155, 168, or 186 MpH.

If the highest speed limit in America is presently 80 MpH, then why is the lowest American electronic top speed limiter presently set at 98MpH? I wonder what the lowest electronic speed limiter is set at on your side of the pond? 108MpH?

I suppose a more complex computer could respond to 'posted' speed 'limits' in a given area. This, of course, would nearly eliminate 'speeding' incidents. Of course, the scamera industry would stand to lose £126 million yearly, so, on second thought ...

The only thing speeds above 55MpH kills, is gas mileage.

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3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 00:21 
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Initially I thought that offering the course to everyone, rather than just the 'blippers' would be a benefit (for example 50 in a 30).

However, on second thought, those travelling and caught at these higher speeds are those likely to be deliberately ignoring the speed limit in the first place, so would be more likely to ignore anything that was said on the course - therefore the points and fine is probably more appropriate for these people.

I think they have got the system about right now.

Given a 30 mph limit:

35-39 : blip - second chance, attend course, pay a bit more than the fine but avoid hikes in insurance premiums and points (which can be severe for some drivers, particularly the inexperienced)
40-54 : unlikely to be a blip (even more so the higher you go up the speed scale) - 3-6pts/£60 will hopefully force these people into better driving behaviours.
54+ : blatant disregard and selfishness, deserve severe punishment (I believe a summons and a potential ban coupled with a higher fine is delivered at this speed threshold).


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 00:55 
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I should "go back to school" to be taught to drive, by reps of an organisation that kills more people each year than I ever could ?
So, 5% of road deaths are caused by drivers going faster than the limit ?
What's that, 150 ?
The police do nearly that amount on their own.
I won't have any of that s**t, I'll take the 3 points and the fixed penalty.
They can stick their school up their a**e.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 08:00 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
54+ : blatant disregard and selfishness, deserve severe punishment (I believe a summons and a potential ban coupled with a higher fine is delivered at this speed threshold).

Well, not quite. Some :30: roads are completely straight, with no side turnings and/or open fields on either side. Their limits may have been reduced over the years from 60 > 50 > 40 > 30. At the same time, we have twisting narrow roads where the limit is :nsl:

The speed limit gives no indication of the safe speed for the road, and conversely the appearance of the road gives no indication of the speed limit.

IMO a 30 limit can make wide, straight roads more dangerous. Of course people are going to ignore an inappropriate 30 limit. But then there will be some zealot that pulls out in front of them because they "shouldn't" be doing more than 30. And then there will be the bunching behind someone doing an indicated 30, which is a true 27mph.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 17:13 
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Here's a story about Speed awareness courses.
Let's begin:
A highly qualified driving instructor, ORDIT registered to teach ADIs, with about 14 years unblemished record, was approached by the local council to work on their speed awareness courses.
The money offered was less than he earned in a day - so he turned them down.
Shortly after, after being caught by camera at 35, with no other traffic on the road on a Sunday morning at 9.0 a.m, he was offered a speed awareness course.
He took up the offer.
On arrival he immediately spotted that he had taught a large percentage of the ADIs that were there to instruct him in relation to speed awareness!!
Several of these instructors had failed to operate their own business in what is a very competetive market!
The classroom video relating to accidents showed a vehicle knocking down a pedestrian at 40 mph whilst burning rubber that would only have occurred at about 60mph+.
When he pointed this out he was told to stay quiet!
On the practical driving aspect, the driving tutor appeared to be quiet young, so he asked him how long he had been qualified. He said about 4 years. A check with DSA from the information on his displayed badge said less than three years.
Whilst driving, the "pupil" asked at every crossroad, road junction, roundabout, etc; "how did I do? Was that O.K?" the answer was great, very good etc.
When he was asked to sign the assessment form he asked how, when in relation to his driving he had started off with all 4s prior to starting his driving he was upgraded to 5s for improvement when he hadn't made a single mistake.
The instructor said he show an improvement no matter what!!!
Come on you guys! Wake up!
These are little more than money making scams!Out to con the public!
Remember in 2003 driving at 38 mph was 3 points and a £60.00 fine!
In 2005 ACPO (The Association of Chief Police Officers), not the government, moved the the goalposts, removed the points, and inserted a Speed awareness course at £20.00 more than the fine.
This immediately DOUBLED the number of Speed awareness courses overnight that they were charging and PAID for administrating!!!
Then they told you how concerned they were that the public should not be getting points for simple lapses of speeding! Of course most of you believe their sincerity!!!!!!
The money goes to the speed awareness provider and the police to divvy up as they please!!!Not the government.
Ever been had?
I rest my case!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 18:03 
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I lived in America in the early 1980s. At that time, America was in the grip of speed limit nazism in much the same way that Britain is today. If you got caught speeding, the way to deal with it was to attend court - if you could make the court date. This is what I did after being caught by Chicago Police for 60 in a 50. The courtroom was packed and, without wanting to sound racist, I noticed that 75% of the defendants were, shall we say, non caucasians.

The judge sits there on his own (unlike UK magistrates' court where he/she will be flanked by 2 underlings of lesser stature) and deals with the less serious offences first, then the more serious onces individually. I got there early, at the end of the preceding session, and the judge was delivering an admonishment to a young man who had driven down the hard shoulder to bypass a long queue for his exit, and a girl who had violated a "no exit" sign by crossing 6 lanes of traffic to get to where she wanted to be.

Next session, and I was called up along with about 20 others to receive our bollocking, after which we were sent to a "road safety movie". The officer in the lecture theatre within the court building was quite open about the crappiness of the movie, and said he just couldn't face seeing it yet again that day! :rotfl:

So we just sat around chatting for 20 mins (the length of the movie - he couldn't let us go before that) whereupon he let us out, handing back our driver's licenses as we left the lecture theatre. What a waste of time! At least I avoided the $20 fine. I don't know how the points system works in Illinois, but we were told we would not be getting any points.

About a year later in California, I was caught doing 60 (limit = 50) on the Oakland Bay bridge, going out of San Francisco. I was given a choice of punishment. Pay a $38 fine and be done with it, or attend a "rehabilitation course" for three whole evenings (!!!) and get a reduced fine of $20. I worked out that the travelling costs of getting to the course plus the time (3 x 3-hour sessions) far exceeded the $18 I would have been able to save. So I decided to forego my "rehabilitation" and pay the full $38.

The good news is that by this time, the "55 saves lives" mantra was already dying, with Nevada having pulled the plug on it, and with many other states set to follow. After that, the number of accidents dropped to what I believe was the lowest level ever recorded, in terms of fatalities per million miles travelled.

Let's hope Britain sees the light, and soon - just as America did.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 18:22 
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P.S.
Forgot to mention:
In 2005/2006 Lancashire County Council, as speed awareness providers, made a clear £157,000 PROFIT.
Lancashire Con-stabulary were paid £252,000 for simply offering the courses.(20,000 pieces of A4)
20,000 took up the offers!
Nice work if you can get it!!!!
Don't forget:
You have already paid your road tax
You have already paid your council tax
You have already paid tax on your earnings that you are paying these awareness courses from!!!!!
Still think they have anything to do with road safety?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 23:18 
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The Rush wrote:
I wonder what the lowest electronic speed limiter is set at on your side of the pond?

All lorries are limited to ~56MPH (90KM/h). Smart Fortwo is limited somewhere around 135KM/h.

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 Post subject: The light? What light?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 02:28 
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DieselMoment wrote:
Let's hope Britain sees the light, and soon - just as America did.
We haven't seen much of that light yet.
Excerpts from this link follow.

"In response to the 1973 oil crisis, Congress enacted a National Maximum Speed Law that federally mandated that no speed limit may be higher than 55 mph. The law was widely disregarded, even after the national maximum was increased to 65 mph in 1987 on certain roads. In 1995, the law was repealed, returning the choice of speed limit to each state."

"Political and fiscal considerations affect speed enforcement.
"Traffic violations have proved to be a great source of income for many states. As a direct consequence, many state administrations have been reluctant to increase the speed limit on state roads. By keeping speed limits "unreasonably" low, the logical conclusion to this effort is that more motorists will appear to "speed". This gives law enforcement personnel the authority to issue traffic citations and thus improve the state's revenue. This policy has rarely been voiced or acknowledged."

"Most states have absolute speed limits, meaning that a speed in excess of the limit is illegal per se. However, some states have prima facie speed limits. This offers motorists a valid defense to a speeding charge if it can be proven that the speed was in fact reasonable and prudent.

A successful prima facie defense is rare. Not only does the burden of proof rest upon the accused, a successful defense may involve expert witnesses or other expenses well in excess of the cost of a ticket. Furthermore, because prima facie defenses must be presented in a court, such a defense is difficult for out of town motorists."

For more, click this link.

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2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 09:25 
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Traffic violations have proved to be a great source of income for many states. As a direct consequence, many state administrations have been reluctant to increase the speed limit on state roads. By keeping speed limits "unreasonably" low, the logical conclusion to this effort is that more motorists will appear to "speed". This gives law enforcement personnel the authority to issue traffic citations and thus improve the state's revenue. This policy has rarely been voiced or acknowledged.


Indeed.

An English friend of mine who has lived in the USA since 1994 and currently in Arksnsas told me that some townships derived a whopping 98% of their revenue this way! Then a law was passed, limiting the proportion of income that could be acquired from motoring violations.

In Britain, we're still waiting for the authorities to admit that the real reason for these speed limit reductions is revenue. The problem we have (and America had) is that the public at large are very quick to jump on the bandwagon of political correctness. Where there have been traffic problems, or even where there have been none, when proposals are considered to deal with a situation, it's the "speed kills, kill your speed" mantra, and proposal for speed camera/speed limit that create the loudest mutterings of approval.

The life cycle of the speed limit experiment in the US was 21 years. We're 11 years into it in England. Only another 10 to go?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 22:17 
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DieselMoment wrote:
The problem we have (and America had) is that the public at large are very quick to jump on the bandwagon of political correctness. Where there have been traffic problems, or even where there have been none, when proposals are considered to deal with a situation, it's the "speed kills, kill your speed" mantra, and proposal for speed camera/speed limit that create the loudest mutterings of approval.
America had?
America still has this problem.
The only thing that has been accomplished by limiting the proportions of income that could be acquired, is that now, more than one agency is breathing down the officer's neck threatening his proficiency evaluations if he doesn't write more tickets.

The biggest conspirators in all this, aside from our respective govt's, are the radar and laser gun manufacturers, and the insurance companies.
Radar and laser gun manufacturers already make the kind of profit on each gun that Porsche still considers an aspirational target. These same manufacturers also make and distribute radar and laser detectors, of course ... like funding both sides in a war.

Meanwhile, the insurance companies usually purchase these radar and laser guns for city and state governments 'out of pocket'. For the insurance company, it's a wise investment. One officer will easily issue enough tickets in one month to cover the purchase of the gun. That gun lasts much longer than one month, and gets wielded by an average of two officers a day, for every day that gun is in service (with calibrations and maintenance, think 48 out of 52 weeks every year). Speeding tickets generate revenue for every gov't agency that has the sense to stick in one of its tentacles.

As violation points accrue on the driver's license / record, his insurance premium goes up. The increase in his premium alone won't cover the outlay for the gun, but the increase in the premiums of everyone who got caught in the 1st month covers the cost of the insurance company's initial investment quite nicely. After that, it's more profit.

From here, it would seem illogical for the aforementioned parties to want to improve driver training standards: there'd be less fish driving in the sea, and they'd be much smarter, which would only make it harder for the monetarily invested parties.

Ironically, the America national government was never able to monetarily profit from the lowered limits. Realizing that. it still left plenty of room for the city and state governments to do so.

Individuals acting individually are not capable of meaningfully injuring this system. We would have to band together and act in much the same way companies and governments do.

Suggestion number one: Everyone fights every ticket, in person, after respectfully requesting a later date for a courtroom appearance.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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