Safe Speed Forums

It seem that lollipops are not what they seem to be in Kirklees...
I put this on PH as well ..



They are now being fit with hidden cameras

To cop the driver (usually a Mumpty) hurling abuse at lollyfolk That ist a

But more worrying than the spat of road rage - they are to be used for "other traffic offences" und the scam used to prosecute the drivers.

Will this same be applied to the cyclist I saw ride und dodge through the walking children the other day ? .. shouting abuse at the poor lolly gentleman who was open-mouthed in shock?

But in any case - lolly folk do a good job und I have no problem with them. But I do think it OTT to try to prosecute someone who "appears to be talking crossly". For all they know the harrassed Mama might be telling off the naughty kittens in car.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

hidden ?

the news article i saw showed the cameras mounted on the side of their hats.. and pretty obvious really.

Wouldn't it be kinda obvious that this is what they are doing, i.e. directing their ire towards their own kids rather than the Lollipop Lady?

Although abusiveness to these individuals is nothing new, isn't it terribly sad that we end up having to contemplate putting Lollipop Operatives in such a position? Another manifestation of Rude Brittania, where drivers just can't wait for 30 seconds whilst some kids are ushered across the road I suppose.

_________________
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

I thought drivers having a problem with lollypop people, has been a problem since the start. They guy on the Telly said that the black line in the middle of the lollypop was put there for the lollypop person to write the reg of offending cars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_guard
Drivers getting mad with lollypop people is not a new thing, perhaps it is more pronounced now? Or is this a new solution to an old problem?

I don’t know how much use the cameras would be where they are anyway. As it showed a camera eye view on the telly, and you could only see half a car. I can’t imagine it being the most stable of positions.

_________________
Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

This is yet another example of the failure of our culture and a prevailing philosophy that you can "make people behave" by regulation and punishment instead of promoting a culture of responsibility and mutual respect.

_________________
I won't slave for beggar's pay,
likewise gold and jewels,
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

Ed..

First things first - we fully support Lollipop folk. I have very fond memories of the old bloke who used to stop the traffic for me when I was at school. Our own children really like the old chap with the lolly outside their school and our fosters usually do a "five salute" to the elderly gent servicing their school. (I cannot send these to the same as my own kids - unless long term and agreed with the "services" and naturally - I do the paying of the fees The reason why - it makes sense to keep the brood together and makes our lives a lot easier.

But Wildy did say that "mouthing abuse or displaying rage" at these very worthwhile and dedicated folk is an absolute . I am sure I posted up a report over the plight of some of these lolly folk being subjected to all kinds of abuse in the past and supporting the measures taken to protect them.

I am not sure how these cams work .. if the head is pointing the wrong way .. the photos may give a completely false impression here. I do enjoy playing with my own cameras .. and Wildy does edit all family photos and videos with amusing captions, voice overs and relevant music etc Thus we are aware of depth of field, angle at which photo taken and impression it can give.. and sometimes .. it does not show what the photographer intended either Or if presented in a certain way - can give a different impression of the reality. How many times have you seen a photo of a house in an Estate Agent's window or a photo of a hotel on-line and found it not to be "per the photo" ?

Yes ... Riggers. There's no excuse for "Rude Britannia" - but you cannot be completely sure that the "mouthing" caught on cam was aimed at the lolly person in all reality. Many will still be looking ahead at the road and not turning to look at the naughty children after all.


But I despair of the need to respond or seek to cure society's ills with a camera. It does not teach better manners. What does teach is the personal touch.. the personal interaction for the most part. The abusers of lolly folk are not the spotty oiky yobs .. but those dropping off their kids in the first place :rolleyes: or the locals in the residential circle where these schools are based.. or even the teaching staff (and we have observed plenty on the odd occasion when we have dropped off the kids at their schools )

I would just love to society just chill out and not be so mithered about being "punctual to the second". Five minutes tardiness is not the "end of the worlde as we know it" Only schools are counting this as "truancy" and even fining the parent over this 5 minutes lateness in extreme cases. One foster's school tried this one on us recently. They lost the argument once Wildy got going .. She pulled the "Derby scam team's scam on them" :guffaw: (Actually .. we literally had to drag this child to school .. screaming all the way as she hated it. I did manage to transfer her to the prep school with our own rogues and she's fine there. ) But we nearly got done for "truancy" again over a 5 minute late EVERY DAY! The last time we nearly ended up in court was over the foster from hell. Wildy or me would frog march him in one entrance and the other had to be at the other exit to catch him. We once ended up chasing a bus to rein him in and get him back to school He's calmed down a lot though. He's in his second year of day release to become a properly trained CORGI etc plumber and has become a solid pal to us.

Oh yes .. I agree that being on time is a sign of self-discipline and respect .. but in these days of busy commutes - inevitable that folk will get delayed all the same on occasion. I think the over-emphasis on this does rather undermine safety and other emphasis on " wider good manners" which expand beyond being on time for some appointment after all. I do allow for delays or emergencies in my appointment schedule anyway.

I think I am trying to say that our "immediate need response requirement" society is rather lending itself towards the impatient display of bad manners and rudeness and intolerance of others.

But all the same .. a surveillance society is hardly going to provide a remedy here

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Sorry MM, but no I don't buy that. If someone is mouthing abuse then their head position, eye position and general look on their face will reveal who it is aimed at; folks can't cover this up and there will be obvious signs.
John MacEnroe famously said he was 'talking to himself' when he was cautioned for abusing an official, it was patently obvious who he was talking to.

_________________
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

I agree. How long do you think it will take to restore a culture of responsibility and mutual respect, and what do we do in the meantime about those who don't display it?

_________________
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Oh I dunno.. I can quite easily be ticking off the rogues in the rear seats without taking eyes off the road. I might have an eye in the mirror .. but this may not be so obvious to a camera here The usual tick offs with our kids is more to do with sibling spats .. the occasional argument over homework/opinion of whatever teacher.. a bit of boisterous shouting.. or an insistence on playing their taste in music louder than I like I tend to watch the road ahead and plan accordingly .. but can be talking to my kids in the car here.. and sometimes I just might be ticking them off over something or other. I admit .. not often as they are rather nice kids but .. like all kids .. you have to "lean on them and rein them in" from time to time.

The fosters will play up because they "hate school" But this does depend on the school .. their personalities and backgrounds here. We usually put our own brood on the school bus and deliver any fostered child to the school they are supposed to attend here. We find some of these kids will scream rather shrillly and un-nervingly. Hence worries that sometimes the photo will not show the actual . but an implied "mouthing or gurning at the lolly chap" when the request to "shut up" might just be aimed at the rogue in the rear here. Lip reading "shut up" on film could be interpreted as saying something else here.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Well I'll give you one thing MM, you are working hard to contrive what is IMHO an unlikely scenario here .
If someone in a car is aiming abuse at you standing outside it is obvious; they have to move their head and body to make eye contact, even lean forward to look under the top of the windscreen below the visor, they look directly at you, there is a context and reason why they might be doing so. It doesn't just happen in a vacuum and, as a result, some video or an image might be taken as 'evidence'.
Look, I'm as dismayed as you are that someone somwhere believes that arming these individuals with cameras because of abuse they receive form the public, but what else could be done?
Get rid of them altogether? Perhaps, if pelican crossings or overpasses could be erected at sites where regular foottraffic occurs on schooldays. Obviously at some public expense.
Tell them to grow some backbone and just put up with it? At which point they decide they are too old to put up with crap from ignorant morons and jack it in!
Bin the whole concept of trying to shepard schoolkids across the road and make it a free-for-all?
Tell their parents to take them in the car and join everyone else on the roads in the morning
Pretend it isn't really a problem and ignore it.
Would we prefer the even more rigid US system of the school bus which one must not pass whilst it is picking up and setting down kids on the morning run?

Ultimately the best end result would be to make folks realise they shouldn't behave like this in the first place, but our competitive and 'me first' society that seems like a long way off.
So I am still keen to know what measure folks think we should take to to fix these problems, rather than constantly carping on about what we don't want.

_________________
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

If I saw a lolly-pop lady with a camera I'd shield my face from it.
Of course then I wouldn't be able to see her, but at least I wouldn't be being videoed.

_________________
Andrew.

You would be amazed at how I can "twist und manipulate family photos und camcorder stuff" to make Mad Doc look daft I usually succeed too purrrrrrrrrr!

If cam on head - attached to cap or within the lolly -it can depend on turn of the head or angle of the lolly cam und it could indeed make person look "guilty" if caught at wrong angle. It how the pappazzi get the celebs to look as they do sometimes. The snarling photos of Heather Mills were carefully cropped und edited to publish at worst light .. likewise those very drunken photos of a most bleary eyed Amy Whinehouse seemed to be selected specifically in the frames or stops at which the rapid clickety clicks of the shutters fired. (it not that I defend these wimmin as they perhaps epitome of "chavdom at celeb levels" - but I do think all photos can be manipulated or interpreted untowardly. )

Now whilst we like our lolly folk around here und they are usually nice gentle courteous Northern rural souls - I can well see how frustration on each side can occur.

For example (from the PH thread on this topic) und one which I have seen in the towns...

Lolly chap/chappesse just walks into road from behind a parked white van .. which causes a problem for approaching driver who cannot see the lolly lady behind the parked metal. She would have been better placed at the zebra crossing a few yards beyond this van.

Then there ist the one who will let one child cross. Then move back to kerb.. let ONE car pass und then stop the next car whilst allowing the next child to cross. It would be more sensible then if he or she can see parents und children approaching to wait 2-5 minutes with the first child und then stop the traffic.

Or worse still the one who stops the traffic und then [i]stands there for a full 5-10 minutes waiting for some children who are approaching to reach und cross. Inevitably .. they cross the road earlier because one side has NO traffic und the other side are now in a standing queue..

Now it this sort of thing which I think create some of the abusive nonsenses as it seem lack of consideration/common sense on part of this type of lolly person to be fair minded und thinking of all the scenario which you do hear actually occurring.

I think then that perhaps the lolly folk do need some better training in many places as these are the adults who will be inspirational in teaching children how to cross a road safely in any case.



But if the person mouthing the abuse can show that the lolly person's behaviour of the unreasonable type - then there may be "mitigation"

Personally, I think we should be teaching manners und really trying to return to genteel courtesy.
Bringing back proper family life -such as simply sitting down to family meal at table..
Neighbourliness.. all this consolidates decent values

We are losing these skills by our somewhat too rushy rush.. long hours.. wannahavitall now ;; RIGHT NOW life styles.

Bring back model making.. airfix.. scalextric.. REAL TOYS .. board games - traditional ones These also part of the lost worlde - along with sport und walks und so on. These are the things which bring back family life to steadier more genteel pace und speaking as Mama of far too large a family at times - this does keep us to evenest of keels und directions .. soothing. balances which mean I can dunk doughnuts into a saucer of milk

Of course - it ideal worlde - but if we can do it? .. then it possible. It might take a while to educate our chavs who splodge around bare- middriff.. builders' bum jeans with an eye on the benefits cheques though





But a lot of lolly folk man pelican crossings Or are positioned at zebras.. traffic lights.. Toucans..



I think the mumpty drivers are perhaps the worst offenders. Unfortunately, these will have the worst type of spoiled kittens in car und they will vent frustrations ..but within car - apart from cross look at being delayed .. I do not think lolly will hear the naughty words if being muttered

A Stinkfinger in my country has always been something you can be prosecuted for though Und there no excuse for the Stinkfinger or sticking head out of window to shout abuse either. Or even ignoring the lolly person as this ist Schchchtttttt-oppPPPPP!




Actually - it would be a lot better to organise a walking or cycling bus with the parents in a rota perhaps .. or get them on the school bus
This would cut out some mumpty morons ... und lolly person will be shepherding more kids at once across instead of holding up traffic for 5 minutes .. und then 5 minutes und then.. 5 minutes..


I do not mind the US system which similar to Swiss system in this aspect
Ultimately the best end result would be to make folks realise they shouldn't behave like this in the first place, but our competitive and 'me first' society that seems like a long way off.




I have tried to think of how to set worlde straighter here, Riggers, my

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Yeah, but now you're talking about manipulating an image using Photoshop (or whatever), not taking some video or a photo of someone who you can see, because of their body language etc, is aiming abuse at you personally.



Of course. But this is a quarter to half century project for a succession of governments. What do we do about people who won't behave in the meantime?

_________________
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Well it's taken 25 odd years to screw it up, so it's a good 50 years to put it right.

_________________
What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

CUE civil liberties lot --"we can't have these people loose with a camera -they could be perverts " - and in a lot of council estates that will be the position - sadly when faced with this sort of enforcement this will be the outcry .

Of course -if police could be covertly in attendance (IF there were eough to go round ) and motorists knew this --the position of the lolipop persons might be a bit more secure . But then , prevention is not part of this governments agenda.(If we could get a lolicam that gets a cast iron case and sends out a fine after the event - well that's what old Gordy wants )

Never mind - tomorrow should see Labour councillors as endangered as white employees in London borough offices .

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

My completely wild cousin is just pure when "messing" with photos and stuff. She got me once Now I do think I have a law to nail her with

But seriously - recall my raw green days when I was "directing traffic" at a busy London junction when the traffic lights had failed ... I made a mistake I gave a sign to a guy who was in the throes of accelerating.


I was trying to be fair and give each junction an equal timing.. ... but I got it a bit wrong and he ended up having to stop. He was a bit purple in face and obviously mouthing rude words at me. I think I did lip read words beginning with "f" "p" "b s and m"

I was not offended and more or less shrugged it off with an apologetic wave, blushed face - and smile - and I do recall the guy did smile back there.


But maybe Wildy is concerned about tilt of head. angle of the lolly taking the photos and it's not quite the same as a cam mounted on a tripod or a Gatso or what is in our vehicles - as a cam mounted on a cap or within the hand held lolly may not be aiming exactly or precisely at the alleged offender ..and may be subect to some head or hand shake too.

I do fear a clever legal beagle may poke some holes in the evidence if and when contested here I do not think it will help the decent folk providing a lolly service in the long run, Beat bobby .. teamed with a PCSO or a special can be costly as a full time resource .. but an occasional random appearance can help significantly all the same. It also makes good PR too

Failing to stop for a lolly person is an absolute and we will prosecute for this here. I will concede to the point that sometimes they do need to use a bit of common sense if they can see a crowd of kids approaching when they have just two stood next to them though . A 2-5 minute wait to let these people reach the lolly person and then all cross at once does help everyone in a rush hour situation. Maybe just a little more training.

Admittedly - when I was directing traffic and someone failed to stop - I could radio in the number and be assured the person would be brought to account for behaving like a twazak This still applies these days too. Ignore a directing traffic and you will live to regret .. Lolly folk though .. like PCSOs do not have this means at disposal and can suffer abuse. No person should be subjected to this in the course of their work and we will prosecute any such behaviour reported to us by these gentle lolly folk.





We take the mantle and the reins here..

We do it ourselves by reporting the obnoxious to the police to have a "word with". If you do not report it - we may not know about it We do rely on the public at large for "intelligence" after all.

We lobby political bods to let them know what we actually WANT and REQUIRE from them - and we cease to be afraid to tell someone else's kid to chill the noise down a bit and stop mountng high horses of indignation if another adult makes a reasonable, FRIENDLY and smilingly polite and ultra calm request for just a little piece and quiet. About 10 years ago - we could do this - just. 20 or so years ago - such "community socialising" was more the norm,

Maybe the next generation will go "retro" in nostalgia for such gentility - as part of a rebellion against their over-indulgent parents.. but will be sure to call it a "new" name. If you like - Jennifer Saunders got it spot on with her hippy, irresponsible mother, the dippy but astutish granny and the ever so serious and virtuously responsible daughter characters

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Glad you brought that up IG. Because when we are asked to do this somebody somewhere runs it through the Daily Mail "emotivator" and lo-and-behold, "reporting obnoxious people" becomes "being asked to spy on one another".
And we can't have that can we?

_________________
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

It a tricky one because our idea of "obnoxious" can be "subjective"

Tja.. I think.. that if we see someone kicking or attacking another or indulging in some slanging match - then this should be reported as help needed before it escalate ..

If we see person trying to mow down lolly folk - then we also need to try to report this too.

Vandalism .. now this ist tricksy as I would report all but one I somehow would not notice .. "fail" to notice..



someone doing this to Gatso .. until after the gatso ist








Then I might notice it ... but it would be as I "not able to describe the gent"

Any other wanton vandalism .. or attacks seen on other people - then I would not hesitate to call cops und try to describe so they can go catch the little yobs.

If I ever saw someone attacking a scamvan.. I would more than certainly do the right thing und get help for the folk inside as though as this not acceptable behaviour.


If a child misbehaving - I have been known to help the parent calm the child. You do not lay into the child or parent - but you smile und exhange some pleasantery to distract from whatever causing the "tantrum". It does sometimes work. Sometimes not. Sometimes they get cross if I tell them about dropping litter ... but at least I tried to und I think what make them angry ist the fact that they feel that "I embarrass or show them up in public " by this.. But then .. it better me saying this than a warden making more money here. I sometimes do say that wardens on the lurk und I try to save them money here.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

As Wildy has pointed out.. it's a hard choice. Like being between between a rock and a hard place.

I'd like to think decent folk will just tell us their concerns to help us help them and help others as a result. I think where we get into the "spy/distrust" is when we police are perceived as privy to too much personal information and why I think our trusting and more or less informal policing style suits the UK much better than the more formal style abroad. In the UK - we are members of the public who have been trained to enforce the laws. We are not an oppressive militant force - but a community. local and social organisation which seeks to uphold order . but not "oppress" the public. My brief has always been to protect and serve first and enforce a law in full fairness thereafter and to treat all with due respect..even a really nasty known criminal as to do otherwise could undermine justice and bring the police into disrepute. :roll;

Ben Elton's sitcom was called the "THIN BLUE LINE". I think sometimes we walk a tightrope act across this thin blue line

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I am an absolute supporter of our Lollipop Ladies and Gentlemen, and anybody who abuses them is therefore abusing our children.
And the Police should use the fullest possible weight of the law to hammer them into the ground.
These dedicated people are out in All weathers to help Our children cross the road safely, whether they are our children or someone elses children is academic, they are vulnerable people and deserve our help and protection.
I feel very strongly about our Lollipoppers they do an amazing job.
Some years ago a Lollipopper by the name Tracy Chapman-Edwards, a wife and Mother of her children, was killed while performing her duties as a Lollipopper, by a driver overtaking traffic stopped at a Lollipopper on a pelican crossing, he overtook, despite it being a 30mph road, admitted he couldn't see properly because the sun was in his eyes, hit and killed Tracy, in front of a bunch of children.
Tracy was one Lollipopper too many killed by a cretinous driver.
Remind me please, if you can't see where you are going, you should slow down or stop until you can see.
We all know the times of kicking in and kicking out of schools, and should therefore be prepared for it, I drive an artic for a living, and at the relevant times and places I am on the lookout for extra danger at these times, and try to stop a bit shorter to a lollipopper than I would a stop line, and almost invariably get a thumbs up of a nod and wink from the lollipoppers for my assistance in alloing a little extra space for their charges to cross the road.
I totally agree with the use of cameras, but only for crossing point abuse.

_________________
Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.