Safe Speed Forums

I've thought about doing that too, in fact I've often pondered if it's legal to turn right out of a T-junction and then wait in the hatchings for a gap to appear in the traffic in the lane that's now to your left.

From there I end up wondering why they don't put actual marked refuges after the T-junction to make that idea official. It would improve traffic flow greatly on some junctions

Time to attempt a diagram I think. Turning right off the main road would happen as normal, but turning right onto the main road would allow you cross to the centre and queue for a gap to the left without needing to make a wider junction as needed for the standard design used to provide queueing space in the central reservation.

Hmmmm. Been thinking about this over the last few days and, to my great surprise, I find myself coming out in (at least partial!) agreement with Weepej! I think the idea MIGHT be good but I don't think the importance of "doing what's expected of you" by other road users can be over-estimated. I bet there are lots of techniques that are cleverer, better, quicker, safer than current "best practice" but the benefits they bring could be outweighed by the effect they have on Mr or Mrs "Average Motorist".

A couple of scenarios have crossed my mind along these lines:

1. You're driving along, there's someone behind you and you want to turn right. You don't want to inconvenience them and cause them to slow down so you pull into the empty oncoming lane and start to slow down. Unbeknown to you, however, they were ALSO intending to turn right into the same road, but they think you're going into a driveway on the other side of the road, or you're going to park on the other side of the road just before the right turn... and then they turn right!

2. You're doing this and then someone reverses out of their driveway on your right, just in front of you, having looked the OPPOSITE way for any oncomming traffic - that being where they'd expect to find it.

3. I'm not sure I can picture the kind of right turn in a built-up area that would be open enough for you to be certain of no oncoming traffic from either ahead or right (or a driveway) to enable you to do this safely, that wouldn't have enabled you to just turn right into it at nearly 30 anyway - thereby not slowing anyone behind you down appreciably.

OK, all these situations refer to urban roads any maybe this wasn't the intention at all. On an open moorland country road with no hedges, etc, I could see it working very well, but even then, I wonder whether the benefit to the following road user might be offset by the somewhat unnerving effect it might have on them. In all honesty, I have to admit that if I were following someone who did it, I might well brake anyway and start wondering "what's this nutter up to"? By the time I'd twigged what the "nuter" was up to, I'd probably have slowd down more than if they'd just turned right conventionally!

Well curiously the pull out and clear of the right traffic while waiting in the centre lane area to then pull in left to what is now 'your' lane ... I have done it a number of times, but 'conditions' have to be 'right' .... traffic up her on the main roads can become very busy in the summer months, including all the 'odd' traffic doing the Land's End to John O' Groats run (eg. today a 4 man tandem bike ) ...
Anyway I agree that it can work and does help the flow of traffic (you/us especially) ...

With regard to the other - comments re: turning right, yes by 'cutting' the corner - is expedient, safe (as you can see it to be clear), it does give a good line,but it is 'right' is it correct, good driving, well that is a whole topic, that can be argued in both directions.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Ok well I am not suggesting this so that the average driver will go off and play with it - but as I say it is an advanced technique - only.



No - not urban - maybe the edges (& exceptional circumstances) .... but it has to be clear !
Well this is where you pick your moments and timings, even traffic behind you can be controlled and your own actions can create gaps and spaces. As people see you do things in the distance - people learn ... and it catches on to those that understand. I agree that this might be an issue.
Don't forget that you are also indicating and braking follows with increasing pressure, as one might if you were still in your lane ... and yo might stay in your lane for as long as possible if conditions stipulate. I have always had, other drivers (when there at all), just carry on to my left - but traffic is far more flowing in this area of the Country .... and people naturally look for the gaps to keep up the flow.
Mind it is a far busier her than is was 15 yrs ago !
hummmm - now does the 'nutter' comment imply that 'one' assumes, that if we do not understand what someone else is 'doing' that is must be less than our own ability & so worse, rather than the thought, that there may possibly, be something to learn, that 'one' has not yet 'seen' - interesting ... (and somewhat sad!)

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

While this technique could help traffic flow I would probably head for Mole's "what is that nutter doing?" thought process. Even if this became a known technique via viral spread I would still be unlikely to undertake because experience tells me drivers have a tendency to move back to the left at least a little before making a right turn. I learnt this the hard way by smashing a Cortina's rear light cluster and leaving a sizeable dent in its rear wing with my right kneecap when the driver pulled a couple of feet to the left just before the turn after having positioned his car in the middle of the road for the turn some time before. The opposite effect on left turns makes me cautious in overtaking unless there is plenty of room.

I like the idea, however when it comes down to it the level of trust you have to invest in the other driver is higher than I would like to make. What I find useful is a driver that indicates in enough time for me to back off before they do so that I can carry a slightly higher speed than they need to drop to for the turn, if that makes sense. If I drove a lorry and had not ridden bikes I might have a different viewpoint though.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Blimey! I thought I was a night owl!!

Thanks for the comments Claire! And YES, the above quote was EXACTLY what you supposed! It was somewhat tongue-in-cheek and definitely designed to take the mickey out of all those (myself included!) who have ever watched someone else do something out of the ordinary, have failed to understand the reason for it, but have then written the other person off instantly as being a "nutter"!

I think a lot of my worries went away when you stressed that it really did mean conditions where visibility was so good and traffic so light. I know you'd said it in earlier posts but it hadn't really sunk in!

It does, however, then leave me wondering whether (for the majority of the driving population), that combination of conditions would be so rare as to hardly ever be worth attempting though.

says the person proposing using the oncoming lane as a braking zone ? (albeit within a minute subset of conditionals).

i kind of thought discussing all the above was kind of the point of the thread ?
(expedient, safe, 'correctness', best practice etc)

Yep absolutely ed_m the point is a whole host of parts including, learned behaviours (local and otherwise), attitude, observational skills, ability, best procedures for the circumstances, and allowing for spacial awareness and predictability of actions.
This action is not something that many drivers will consider, as I say I perceive it to be, in the 'advanced' category.

Some areas of the Country all have their own little 'accents' on localised driving behaviour.
Take London for example, people drive far closer, and cut in and out of traffic, (or the 'get on with it approach'), as a natural way, of driving 'properly' in London, but take that 'behaviour' and place it in say Ullapool, and people will think that you are the rudest person alive !

So, my thoughts on this particular 'behaviour', was to see if others are aware of it, or, is a 'local accent', and can the principals develop into other areas of driving and make them better.
This 'action' can be achieved, so it is barely perceptible to the following traffic, or more 'exaggerated' (when traffic is heavier to aid flow).

If 'one' can drive with good or excellent spacial awareness, and control, then can all 'developed' manoevures be safe, if all other conditions are correct and are recognissed as so?
Or, is it always considered bad or dangerous, because it has not yet been recognised and acknowledged ?
Certainly there is 'trust' in drivers generally, and a good dollop of 'forgiveness' when things go wrong, but bad attitudes (and stress), can make people less tolerant.

I hope that I would never cause any concerns from any action, that I did on the road. But by the same token a drop in people's skills, to make things 'even', and more easily understood by the 'lowest common demonitator' would be of severe safety concern.

So then, can an action if 'timed' correctly, make it safe and appropriate ? Is timing a key to safety or safety the key to timing ?

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Its not a good Idea, no matter how clear you may think it is every time you do it, there are always circumstances that can crop up in the blink of an eye. There is a correct procedure in place that everyone (including cyclists/pedestrians) is aware of. But the most important point is this....If it is completely clear then a competent driver should negotiate it without causing any delay to following vehs so why do it?
But just to point out a couple of sudden events that could take place that do happen and sometimes pretty often.

At the point you chose to do this daft thing when it has become habitual, you whip over the wrong side of the road prior to turning into the street/road, the bike comming towards you or car , with novice at the helm or old and nervous, suddenly reacts to a car on the wrong side of road. the old boy panics and slams anchors on, the car/bike behind crashes, all because you thought they were miles away ......or someone comes out of house, stepping into the road only looking right before ambling onto road surface to cross the road( as they uaually look left half way across), meanwhile you cannot move back because joe bloggs is now passing you on your left.....or boy racer behind you thinks your stopping on the right and passes you only to turn right himself....or person behind you slows or even stops defeating the object of your effort as they look in amazement at this plonker who doesnt know what hes doing on wrong side of road, better watch he doesnt do something stupid cos he may be p*ss** up.....I could give you a long list but it still doesnt alter the fact that it is nonsense. If it is all clear then there should be no delay by negotiating normally. Bad habbit to get into and cops will love fixed penalty or even driving without due care....The highway code and driving standards has been around for a good while now, many come up with ideas of change and some take it upon themselves to adopt an unorthadox method into their driving, its not a good idea, it always leads to tears.

How many accidents have happened due to people doing this where it is safe then?

_________________
Andrew.

I doubt anyone other than police and /or insurers would know that answer.

you could ask an equally searching question like....How many junctions in the whole of the united kingdom can you assess as being completely SAFE to carry out this misguided technique?..............I cannot think of many at all where I could see clearly enough in all directions around the junction to confidently do it. And Ive had 33yrs and over 100,000miles pa for the last 25yrs in order to spot them .Driving confidence in many drivers is often misguided or confused optimism in reality.This whole Idea is probably based on one well known junction on a regular used route, not really valid as a new safety technique and not worth serious consideration in my mind as it is a nonsense idea, because if it is absolutely clear as is indicated....why is it needed? A competent driver would hold up no one carrying out the turn normally, the only people who would be momentarily slowed are TAILGATERS and they deserve to be held up as much as poss ( safely of course).

if anything this goes beyond advanced and is a totally niche technique only potentially available at a tiny subset of junctions to a tiny subset of driver's who would even consider it in a tiny subset of road conditions!

So when I say 'clear' you automatically assume that I mean 'only a bit clear' or 'probably'. Interesting. Why ?


Sure, and do you still use the steering wheel as you instructor taught you ? No you find better, lazy or worse ways, that I totally agree can become terrible driving habits before you know it, but this is not what I am referring to here.


Well this is a developed concept, that I have tried to explain as best I can, but perhaps I have not done that very well, or perhaps I need stronger words !
It is not possible to brake and turn right from flowing traffic in your own lane without people behind you braking. They will instinctively and automatically brake if you have been indicating right and slowing down. You have become a classic example of a potential hazard and about to turn into a hazard and block their path altogether. You may have to wait before you turn right and they may have to stop, so as good drivers they brake, probably after an initial ease off the throttle and then a cover of the brake pedal and then apply increasing pressure.
It is not about being able to follow the HC to enable a typical textbook right turn, which may or may not hold up the traffic.
I am talking about being polite, looking out for your fellow driver, seeing how you might help them and you into the bargain.
It has nothing to do with speed or good lines or apex cornering - just plain old help and being courteous to other drivers. That is 'why' I MAY do this.

But (as with may driving manoevures), it can be subtle and it can be 'obvious'.



resorting to insults will only tell me that you have not yet understood something that you are either closed to understanding all-together or have yet to comprehend what I am suggesting ... I will try better to express things more clearly still ...


that implies a huge gap in understanding driving. To imply that an action that is carried out, will become a learned behaviour is extreme, and is certainly never how I drive. Your knowledge of my driving is 'interesting', as I know that I have not been followed ! Driving on these forums are taken extremely seriously and never as a 'package type deal', surely you must be aware of this. Driving is a very serious subject and could never be so flippantly actioned!
But - lets not go down that road (hehehe) lets take your example more subjectively ...



hummm so which bit of 'clear' did you not read. lets be absolutely crystal clear here ....
clear = NO vehicles
and in my set up - NO oncoming for lets say half a mile to a mile, on the main road and quarter of a mile on the side road, now does this help ?
there are no building or hedges to obscure your view.
so that ends your example ... but for the sake of interest ... we shall continue ...



hummm well a little movie scene here really but the 'thought they were miles away', has be very worried. Have you ever make a mistake on the road of a half a mile !!! or even a few 100yds ??? even if we took this in the vain that I am assuming that you really meant it is still worrying. Why I here you ask - well because when we envisage an example we tend to do so with our own experiences. So you have tired to set this up within your own driving experiences, yet totally failed to understand that clear is, and means clear. So you bring in a vehicle, but who ever would try to drive on the wrong side of the road in the face of oncoming traffic it would be totally absurd, and would quite rightly deserve the court to punish.
... and whilst I appreciate that you maybe, just taking your example to the extreme, but really ....



Again clear means clear ! Not a host of potential hazards floating about, an have also stated to help clarity that this is unlikely to be carried out in any urban environment ... and yes then you would also have the predictability argument into play and may ell refrain for that purpose.



Well if the 'boy racer' was behind me then I may well have let them go long before I got to the junction.
I have not yet got to discuss the 'set up' for driving behaviours ... but since it has come into this now, we could touch briefly on it, for a moment ...
Prior to a junction that you 'know' (by this I mean a regular junction that you know well) you may have opportunities to allow other traffic to pass you - as standard good behaviour driving) this can help too with your later manoevure.

If someone slows or even stops well that is perhaps a shame, but I have never had that happen.
It is likely and often that traffic may slow a bit too, depends on when you can 'help'. If the driver following has not already seen that a driver in front is intoxicated then of course they may be surprised by an unpredictable manoevure, but much driving is the 'manner' in which you carry out your driving and the manner in which you interact with others. I control my space about me and work to get good, at it. if you like I manufacture the space and do all sorts of things to maintain it, and sometimes it may even involve me to pull over and let traffic past.



How? Typically - you indicate, then you start to brake, as does the vehicle following, you brake harder to adjust your speed for the right turn and then adjust your position in the last 50ft or so depending upon conditions. If there is room the car behind may try for the pass on your left as you turn. You turn and the car behind if they were unable to left pass can now either speed up again or start moving.
So they have either slowed or stopped. If the road was wide enough for them to pass (easily or just comfortably) then this alternative action is completely un-necessary. If it is all clear even the above scenario, is the likely outcome, as in, that people still slow, and maybe pass if possible.



Done with care proper attention this helps and is courteous.
Many bad habits are appalling, but this is not what we are talking about. What about good habits - like always leaning forwards and moving your head at every junction, to obtain the very best view - is that not better - do you think that that should not happen because it is not in the HC ?
What is the point of doing an advanced test then ? Or any further advanced driving skills or techniques ?



the HC has some really very questionable things getting into it now and suggestive things even than clear guidelines too - it is become too big and too vague too! Very sadly ...
No you are wrong, driving is a learned skill that we continue to improve at with further knowledge and understanding. Where do you think that the 'ideas' of better solutions and new 'allowances' come from ?
Anyway I hope this helps to go toward understand more about where I am coming from here

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

err no, the point was, that you had missed the bit about it being totally clear, and so there would not be any accidents ...



Well that amount of driving is extreme - what is it that you do? That is a 5th of your life on the road ...

I know of a number of junctions where it could be possible, and that IS all over the Country too.
Who are you to say what techniques are good, and what are bad ? You are entitled to your opinion sure. Since you have failed to understand it properly, I cannot IMHO, see how you can judge it at all - at least yet anyway.
I put it forward in this public forum, to see if others were familiar with it, or if it is a local technique ....
Surely are we not all here to learn and 'grow' ?



So, if all drivers have a good opinion of their skills, is it not your own learned skills that you are using to criticize here ?
And who said anything about this being a 'safety technique'????
And as to why, well I have answered above.
I do not think that holding up a tailgater for as long as possible - even safely - is safe ! To use your driving skills to handle tailgaters by deliberately choosing act aggressively because IYourO to hold them up for driving badly is fair punishment, and also put yourself in danger for longer is not courteous, good driving, safe or even legal. In fact you could be 'done' for careless driving! To deliberately hold someone can carry a 'careless driving charge'. An interesting tactic, for one that has got so much experience on the road.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

And I wonder just why that should be?

_________________
"The Wrong Way Round..."

Claire, as I said in my first reply to you, I understand completely, but you'll never get through to his kind! (Thank you for the ignore list!)

Also, for his information, I've done many more miles than him in a lot more years.....

And there are lots of these junctions if you keep your eyes open.