Safe Speed Forums

I decide to post in this section instead of "News"



I decided not to title it per the Manchester's rather lurid headline.. :rolleyes:







Unfortunately, by suggesting that bikers should not be pursued because they are more "vulnerable" could lead to their thinking like this grandfather that they may not be pursued...

Of course, the biker should have stopped when signalled to. They behaviour could have caused suspicion that "more to it.. " :rolleyes:

But that aside.. control tried to calll off this pursuit .. yet the officers chose to continue?


Manchester's Leader column consider the story raises



The leader commenter think the pursuit was "disproportionate"...

But I do also wonder which document "was out of order" given the biker fled the way he did.

But in any case... surely they could have called off the chase .. und just picked him up from home .. assuming he was the registered keeper of this bike.. Or given he was local .. just picked up another day when he "less of aware of the stealthmobile" ... :rolleyes:

A sad story for all involved. It seems OTT for so many to be involved.

But the in-laws have noticed cams over M602 at the Eccles/Trafford Centre exit... 8 traffic cars parked up on hard shoulder further along .. a week or so ago..

They also noticed similar activity this last week elsewhere. Perhaps this was ANPR activity at its source?

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Not only are bikers more vulnerable, they are also extremely unlikely to be stopped by police cars in a safe manner. Even a modestly engined bike is capable of out-accelerating/outrunning even the most powerful cars in use by the police and, even if they do keep up with him, their conventional techniques for stopping non-compliant vehicles, such as "stinger" or a rolling roadblock, are not safe for use on a bike. Its reported that an air support unit was involved, so why didn't they maintain surveillance whilst the cars dropped back, thus 'allowing' the pursued to ride in a less frantic manner? Sooner or later he's gonna need to stop for gas, and then they can pounce, safely! Quite clearly a longer, safe, pursuit is preferable to a short dangerous one that ends in tragedy.

There were so many other ways this could have been undertaken, with so much less chance of a KSI, that I feel the GMP's actions on the day are tantamount to manslaughter. This is even before we ask the question whether an 8-car U.S. style convoy-chase was a proportionate response to whatever transgression the biker was alleged to have committed (and remember that innocent people have had their cars crushed based on the failings of the ANPR database).

_________________
Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

No insurance.
I have only managed to tax my bike online once, the other times it has shown as no insurance.
I'm getting (following recent problems with my van showing no-insurance) fed-up with the inability of the police to understand that not *showing* as insured does not mean *it is not insured*.
I'm also fed-up with the implication that the insurance certificate I carry with me must be invalid and I must be a crook.

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Having had personal experience of intimidation by police car up my ass at half past midnight on rural roads I couldnt say what went through the minds of these cops but I can speculate what went through the minds of some. What the cops did to me, had it been done to a less capable rider or novice they would have caused a crash. Without detail the cops in my incident were 100% wrong and up to now have got away with it but that another issue.The point is do not underestimate the over zelous nature of some cops, and do not accept that all traffic cops are expertly trained drivers, because few are at that level and none of their training takes into account their mentality.

In this case it seems ott and resulted in someones death. Cops are always on TV telling us all how they want to save lives and indeed some do as do some policing policies, but I find it stupid that bikes are chased to this end. If they didnt chase him, would he be dead? ....What was he guilty of that justified such a chase? Cops get things wrong but they are often a very long time admitting it, if they ever do!

We've halted many a pursuit .. even though the idiot biker was well in excess of the ton. We reckon we'll get him some other time soon enough..


Unfortunately, as I mentioned in a different thread tonight.. we have had some who ploughed into a rather nasty oak tree at twice the ton .. on a lethal bend...

No.. we do not use any evidence in a PR nonsense to the media. We may ask the bereaved if we can use some shock photos to deter young "red bloods" from similar outcome .. without any PR nonsense... trying to score points over whoever or whatetever We always abide by their wishes so who was to blame for what ... as this is another matter of respect.. and mutual respect will always beget mutual respect ..

I cannot go on anything other than Wildy's paste up from the MEN site here.

I suspect he had let the insurance lapse. Maybe it was not a week's oversight. Maybe the bike required an MOT or something put right under a HORT 1 etc ./. which he failed to comply with

How much of this spilled into red mist on both sides .. I really cannot say.

I suspect the biker may have kept on "goading" and trying to re-kindle the pursuit after the call -off. We do get this type too. If this occurs . it is a difficult call regardless as he may still have the fatal without any action .. and if he does and the police were even nearby.. it gets the full "media twister" :roll; whichever side of the coin Wildy's "Kismet" chooses to call



The truth will out in due course. My thoughts are with the officers who got caught up in this affair. I also have some compassion for the biker's family. They are also in mourning and it does not matter to them if he failed to renew a policy or an MOT or whatever and tried to evade justice and a fine. All they see, alas, is that their nearest and dearest died .. and the police were somehow involved Look.. they will be feeling a mix of anger against the police.. anger against the biker ... guilt if they knew he was taking some chances with his bike .. and then guilt at being angry too.

GMP will be as adept as we are at compassionate liaison... but when all is said and done.. he died when he collided with another vehicle when all that was required of him was a document check. We are aware that the database may not be up to date .

We do allow 7 days to produce all documents for most here.

. But even so .. this should not cause a grandfather to ride off and refuse to pull over at such great speed like that. It will create suspicion that there is more to this than a failure to renew VED/Insurance?MOT

The truth will come out eventually .. but so who caused what to happen ..those officers will still live with the "what if they had done X instead of Y" and the biker's family will be asking the same angry questions of their loved one's behaviour in all this..


Indeed a sad affair .. I cannot vouch for all police officers. I can only say that our mob are not "out to get folk" and we accord polite respect even when dealing with a known criminal. To do otherwise can sink any
prosecution .. and a professional person is supposed to stay calm and collected anyway..

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

ISTR a study from the states back in the 70's that found that a significant number of completly innocent people will run simply because they are being chased! these are people who, even in their own minds, have not done anything wrong!

(Like in excess of 30%!)

Police chases should only be carried out if they are attempting to apprehend people who are a known and significant real risk to other people.

Hounding people to their deaths because their paperwork is not in order is not acceptable!

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Tell me about it, I watched Police Stop 2 last night and there was one chase (in the pi$$ing rain) where the lead pursuit car was taking incredible risks to apprehend the offender including overtakes where he was missing oncoming traffic with literally inches to spare.
Before anybody says "it all looks different on camera from inside the car", the lead car was being followed by the camera car.

Now I accept that the offender has to be stopped, but at what cost to the public?

In last nights episode, they were only chasing a disqualified driver.
Now if the guy was wanted for (say) murder, then I would understand why they may be reluctant to call the chase off....but to take the risks they did just to catch someone who decided to ignore the courts was way OTT (especially as they knew who he was and could have nicked him later at home).

_________________
What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

But the person was asked to pull in. He chose to accelerate away at speed. We have come across some who come back after we have given up the pursuit.. just to get us to chase him again. Unfortunately, that's when they make that fatal error

Or .. you manage to successully box them in and are gently trying to bring the entire team - plus the miscreant in question - to a gentle and safe stop .. they try a "runner for it" on the last minute. Does not happen often. I think it's only happened twice over all the years..

I do not think this chap was "hounded to his death" given the press account that he was "weaving on and off the M60"
and collided with the other car when he then left the motorway and I do not know if he was still being pursued at this stage. The article says that "at one point - 8 cars were involved - including the GMP helicopter". Maybe this biker was too fully charged with some "red mist".

No one knows which document he did not have.. or even if this bike was registered. If the bike is unregistered or reported as stolen - we usually deploy our "stealthmobiles" (to coin the 's term ) to look out for these as the marked cars would be like red rags to an angry bull If the bike is not stolen and we think the RK was not legal - then if he accelerated off and it became too dangerous to US and others, we'd be inclined to head off to his home and just wait there


I also do not know the manner in which he accelerated away when first requested to stop for a routine check. I strongly suspect his accelerating style may have created great suspicion to the first officer.

Unless we have reason to suspect the vehicle is unroadworthy and definitely not insured - then we will give the normal 7 day producer. If the vehicle has no legal right - insurance or a plain "unroadworthy heap" - then we will tow off the vehicle and - we tend to crush "unroadworthy heaps"

We try to nail the illegal/obviously downright dangerous drivers before they manage to do any damage to anyone here. Pursuits here are managed quite well overall - and all our teams are well aware of where they stand if they put our public at risk. We do abort many a pursuit .. but can pick up later when circumstances/condtions are safer, calmer and we have a potentially successful chance of bringing whoever/whatever to heel without anyone getting hurt. We keep it "intelligence led" and all patrols out there are working together without actually feeding someone's red mist.

The other aspect of policing when we pull someone up or even tell them we have cause to arrest them - is that officers must stay calm, polite and professionally objective at all times. Cocky manners on the part of all resolve little.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

In spite of my recent diminishing respect for the bib, I do not condone "calling off a dangerous pursuit". If the officers lose the target vehicle through consideration for others safety thats one thing, but to call off dangerous pursuits is to let anyone thinking of running they have a chance of escape if they can drive dangerously enough, which is not really the signal you want to send out. I daresay those who run are more likely to be in unregistered cars, or up to more serious crimes, and the ones you really NEED to stop. you cross a very significant line when you run from the police, where menial/accidental infringement becomes conscious decision to recklessly evade & break the law.

Obviously officers not following orders is a serious issue, but I fail to see how central command are in a better position to make that decision than 8 trained officers. Thinking on your feet, er wheels, is surely one of the officers most important skills.

_________________
Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

So, this prat was told to stop by the Police and didn't. As a result of HIS OWN STUPIDITY he died. Well tough. I have no sympathy other than for those in any vehicle that he collided with and the suspended officers.
There are no excuses. It's simple. When told to stop by the Police, you do so. You do not do a runner, thus putting others in danger. The worlds best rid of this jackass and I hope that whoever suspended the cops from driving duties either sees the error of their ways pretty sharpish or gets sacked.
Speaking as a passionate biker who likes to live life to the full.........

Lot of sense in what you say and you dont appear to be the ott type.
When I look at things like this I look at the logic of it all. The end result is a dead biker....would he have died if not chased by police?
Was his level of crime so serious that it justified such police action and resources?
Was the risk of leaving the biker alone a serious risk to the public at that time?
Statistically how many bikers have killed or injured a 3rd party when being persued?
Statistically how many bikers in other circumstances have killed or injured others?
Why didnt at least one of the persuers decide this was ott behavior and excess use
of police resources and that such a large police activity in itself puts the public at
risk or in danger and break off?(that last one is a biggy to me)

If he was a known child murderer escaped from prison I would probably support the cops, but he was a rider being a little silly and challenging, not much more than that.

I may seem a little anti cop sometimes in my posts but actually Im far from that.

We will never know that, but what is certain is that we was entirely the author of his own demise: all he had to do was stop when ordered.

It's idiots like him that have given rise to the "Speed Kills" mantra and all that follows and the rest of us now have to suffer.

Maybe, with 13 grandchildren, he couldn't afford all the taxes. Maybe he couldn't afford any more points. Maybe he didn't want to risk the police stealing HIS bike and vandalising it. Maybe if the police and government stopped bullying us he would have stopped.

_________________
Andrew.

And maybe at 54 years old he should have known better than to outrun half the local Road Traffic Division and a Police helicopter.

But then his own children would be earning .. or receiving benefits and tax credits to help raise these kids.

I think he should have just stopped and faced whatever was wrong with the documents. Because he must have been aware that he was not 100% legal for him to have done such a runner.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Update in yesterday's MEN



If only he had been a grown up and stopped when requested I honestly do not think the guy even knew why he was challenging the cops if the facts as reported are correct. Moment of madness? But it seems everyone else is to blame.. apart from the man on the bike. Sorry. But that's how it still comes across.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Taking to two wheels is a risk. Fleeing on two wheels is an even bigger risk. I think officers should be free to pursue as long as OTHER members of the public are not at risk.

Perhaps the penalty for failing to stop should be higher than it is - making it just a bit better than dying, then there might be some incentive to stop.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Agreed EM.

Similar situation - armed police confront person with "weapon " (may be real or not -they do not know ) ---they request person to surrender - person replies by threating police/MOP with weapon .Police decide that lives are at risk and open fire .
Both situations demand that the rule of law is respected . In both cases it's ignored.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on