Safe Speed Forums

I thought mini-roundabouts were introduced at some crossroads and t-junctions to allow traffic to emerge from the less busy roads more easily. What difference does it make to drive over the paint?

The main problem is that people on the main route just drive straight into them like they weren't there. They need better signing to improve this.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

No we need better drivers! All mini roundabouts are indicated on aproach by the little round blue mini roundabout sign and very often before that by a normal advanced warning of a roundabout ahead (traingular road sign) hey why not have a road sign every 10m down every road for the less capable? Mini roundabouts were introduced to slow traffic down and to improve flow from all directions, they have failed because of all the people who cant see any fault driving over the painted area for one reason making them more hazardous than the junctions they replaced. Major roundabouts are there to improve or even speed up the flow of traffic at major junctions. If you cannot see the reasoning for a mini roundabout by the nature of its location then perhaps a retest should be considered as you are unlikely to see the confusion and hazards that can occur at minis.Maybe you should start a campaign against prosecutions of drivers who get caught driving BADLY over mini roundabouts. Ask yourself this...if they built major roundabouts in the same way as minis but much larger would you drive over the painted central area at one on the A1 for example? There is a method for negotiating ALL roundabouts, if you cannot follow the correct procedure on minis you are going too fast hence some of the failed reasoning behind slowing traffic down on minis.

Whats the difference driving over the painted area ? you say.............1. not following the correct path ..2. placing your veh in a less stable state especially in the event of emergency braking...3.Confuses other road users...4.almost always carried out by drivers travelling too fast for the circumstances and the purpose of the mini roundabout (haste rather than safe)....5.confuses pedestrians ( I could site two such roundabouts where someone has been killed and one seriously injured through the fault of drivers cutting across)...6.Is almost always a sign of arrogance and ignorance....7. is contrary to HC and the law...8....................................... do I really need to go on? It is an activity that rarely gives any advantage at all and when it does give some degree of advantage its at greater risk and the adv is miniscule and often lost within 100yds.If you are so keen on it please carry it out whenever you have cops following.I sometimes think this is nothing more than playground teen rebellion rather than anything sensible.

Of course, it could be nothing to do with your 1 to 8. It could be that most mini-roundabouts seem to be poorly aligned and designed and traversing them without going over the paint is awkward. It's nothing to do with "advantage".

I can think of one just round the corner where, if you are turning right, it would be pretty impossible to keep off the "island" unless you had a London Taxi with extreme steering lock.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

If I didn't look in all directions at mini roundabouts I'd have had two or three crashes so far. You could argue that it was "my right of way" or something, but hey, I stopped, my car isn't dented.

Clipping the centre is just as illegal as driving right over it.

I'm not sure how pedestrians could get confused by people driving over the centre, unless they themselves cross right over the middle of it?

This reminds me I really should get a video of the mini roundabout on the A35 by the abandoned park and ride in Poole.

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Andrew.

And if you read closely my earlier comment I said that the only time I would accept drivers clipping the edge of the central painted area was due to tightness and if the driver was making the effort to negotiate correctly,I never mentioned illegality. My serious point was against those who just drive over the middle regardless. Lets not get daft here, people cut their way across mini roundabouts cos the majority couldnt care less and are often in too much of a hurry in that there is no way they are gonna slow to a speed they can do it correctly but few would admit it, instead they look for excuses or try to justify their neglect, people just dont like mini roundabouts and often see them as a pain or a nonsense they simply do not want to slow down when they can keep a pce up by taking short cuts. And your reasoning is clearly one sided and probably only takes into account one or two in your area and which I doubt are that difficult, in all my years of driving I havent come across more than one or two MR that cannot be negotiated in a car correctly. If you think its hard, then your speed is probably too high for that requirement or your ability to negotiate them.If a driver isnt good enough to do it right how can they ever consider themselves competent doing it wrong? Just because it feels easier to the less capable doesnt make it safe, there are many junctions I could turn at by taking the short route or follow a natural arc at a quicker pace through by going on wrong side of the road should I do this cos its physically easier to do? just because people percieve less hazards at mini roundabouts thats one of the factors that leads to mishaps.And if people are not seeking some kind of speed/pace advantage what poss reason is there for doing it other than perhaps just being someone who couldnt care less?....note the last two words..'care and less' probably why they are put togeather so often describing drivers.

The fact you cannot see how peds could get in trouble here and make a rather silly comment that they must be walking over it themselves tells me a lot about your understanding and awareness.And the fact that you are eager to tell me that if you didnt look in all directions you would have had two or three crashes so far, you fail to understand that not everyone thinks like you or acts like you.

Let me try and explain to you how a pedestrian was run over at a MR in the hope you may understand.

Pedestrian walks up footpath and comes to MR....ped is going strait on to connect with pathway oposite..its clear to left and a car comes from his right and passes(at which point the passing car obscures view of others)...traffic oposite him is going strait on....pedestrian judges that the veh indicating right is behind two others going strait on will take a certain amount of time to enter and negotiate before ever comming near him and crosses the road( bear in mind this MR is in a heavily populated area and at peak times is non-stop traffic ,one of the reasons a MR was put there, to slow it down and give others equal chance to make progress), by the time hes only half way the veh turning right cuts the MR fails to see pedestrian due to all the other activity and their haste to get over the MR quickly at a pace and runs him over.Before anyone starts quoting....if you cannot stop for a pedestrian in normal driving circumstances you are almost certain to be at fault. this ped ended up broken and in hospital.

When there are many destractions at MR thats when they become very hazardous hence the number of crunches in general at MRs along with the endless near misses.I hate them myself simply because the majority seem unable to use them for the purpose intended.You only have to study a very busy one at peak times to witness how poorly people drive at them.

I, too, am extremely careful at mini-roundabouts, slowing or stopping, looking all around for other cars, pedestrians etc. before driving safely over the paint at the poorly positioned island.

(P.S Herbie, could you paragraph your posts a bit more. I find them very difficult to read easily.)

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Id rather teach you to drive better as gram graduates skills are of no use on the road. You only get a B lakk marrrc for spolling mistokes and bad grimmer and you can always do it over wiv spollchek and holp of a thesorus and the like, YOU mess up on the road and no level of facetious comment or gramatical exelence will help you one little bit. But here we go again some pompus ass with their own agenda and little idea would rather condem than contribute or debate. If you dont like what I say or how I say it GROW UP! or dont interact you infant! The fact that you are having difficulty reading my posts probably reflects your difficulty reading anything correctly. All you seem to post in the main in this thread and supported by another is justification or support for doing something illegal deliberately and justifying your own error (perfect on a safe speed forum )and when I point out (directed at everyone) The correct way and some pitfalls,examples and errors you seem offended and revert to childish facetiousness.Do you have this attitude when you drive?

I'll ignore your ad hominem comments and point out that the mini-roundabout I mentioned above has the blue circular arrow signs positioned right at the give way lines. There is no advanced warning of the roundabout layout. This is why I think signing is poor.

Oh, I will make one point.

I will leave it to others to judge who has the infantile attitude.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Isn't that how they are all [meant to be] signed? From reading the law it is the blue sign which is the most important thing, that's what you "disobey".

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Andrew.

The important point is the signing and lining. It it is only the blue circular mini rab sign (Diag 611.1) and square broken line (diag 1003) then it is only an advisory give way. It needs to be signed with a give way sign (Diag 602) and the double broken line (Diag 1003) to be a mandatory give way.

I'll admit to being an inexperienced driver, only been driving since February.

I've always hated mini-roundabouts, from being a pedestrian and being confused by them when I was younger, to being a cyclist and finding a particular MR junction to be pretty much a blind junction, and now as a driver, they are a nuisance.

Can anyone tell me how to properly negotiate a roundabout on which it is impossible to do a u-turn, and in many cases impossible to go 3/4 of the way round without touching the central island?

I wonder.
Anyway if you are a qualified driver I would ask how come you dont know? But to be helpful, first of all on your aproach you must slow down to a speed at which you can negotiate the MR correctly. In the case of very tight MRs that a 'u-turn' as you call it ,cannot be carried out, you take for eg the 3rd exit and find somewhere safe to turn round and return to MR then T/L back on your route.(Do not stop or reverse on MRs) I have come across very very few MRs that cannot be negotiated easily in the average car, however , the increase in extra large 4x4s (in most cases for the less well endowed mentally and physically )has created additional problems but even those vehs if used correctly can achieve correct use of MRs.If I can do it in an old army long wheelbase I expect these 4x4s with their power steering to at least make the effort.

The same proceedure for any roundabout applies to MRs its just that things happen real quick on minis, (no sooner on then off) Adopt the correct position and speed/SIGNAL on aproach if necessary /GIVE WAY or STOP if necessary/ always indicate that you are leaving the roundabout. Make every poss effort to follow the correct positioning throughout the manouvre (if inadvertantly you clip the central island this would not be an offence if you have made every effort to negotiate correctly and the nature of MR and your veh size make it physically impossible to do otherwise)

People only get into bother when they simply 'dont bother'! For every MR that cannot physically accomodate all turns by cars there will be 100 that can, but will you see any effort on the 100?.

If it helps, I too have hated MRs ever since they came into popular use on our roads as I have never believed that the majority of drivers are capable of using them correctly either because of their driving ability or their mental attitude towards them or both, Ive even seen coppers regularily ignore the correct use when they are not in any hurry, but they will be happy to nick us for the same error(just ask the wife) .

no amount of roadsigns will help anyone who can't see 4 feet of domed white paint on the road.

As for clipping them, many mini roundabout are congestion points and the quicker everyone exits the roundabout the faster traffic flows. on many mini R's you can send out a misleading message by going around, clipping is so common the driver to your left may assume you're taking the first exit not the second. By clipping you send out a positive signal about where you're going.

As for it being possible to transverse any mini-R without clipping... there a lot of mini-R's and a lot of vehicles you have still to drive. The title of this thread for one, road design is appauling, and no-one who's ever driven a sherpa van would make that claim, the lack of steering lock is laughable except when it's a downright nuisance or danger. And thats a small van.

They built up a mini-R in muswell hill a few years ago, built it real high to stop cars clipping it, was a brilliant idea for... about ten minutes, then a double decker bus came along and grounded on it



As for the topic of this thread, it's my theory the local road designers all have shares in car body shops. Why else could they design such silly junctions? misleading RoW, conflicting intentions, and no real standardisation, they seem to thrive on trying out new, wacky ideas, but hey, it's only our time and tax dollars they're wasting. Speed bumps on a hill anyone? In a braking zone to a junction? Are road planners all militant cyclists with little concept of good driving practice?

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

London Taxis have terrible turning circles - so by your arguement most people can get round easily

I was thinking of this:

http://www.lti.co.uk/tx4/manoeuvrability/

and in Wikipedia: "Black cabs have a turning circle of only 25 feet (7.6 m)."

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I would say that the new system in Windermere needs better signage. The old system was perhaps marginally safer.


By the way .... ignoring road signs and the mini-roundabout is a kind of road sign - we have TS50 to cover "failing to comply with a road traffic sign - excluding traffic lights/stop signs and double solid whites which have their own penalty codes .

Have we done anyone for clipping the paint? Nope. If badly engineered - sometimes there is little other choice unless the driver wishes to argue with a bollard instead in one around here..

The 4x4 in the photo taken PRE-"improvement" was cutting the corner in that instance. We may have chatted about his logic in this instance .. but doubt we would have taken any further action.

I do find the one mini which folk there do cut .. is the one on the A591 which has the turn down to Bowness. A lot of right turners into the Bowness road (A592) cut that corner and even go the wrong way around the mini-roundabout. I would not say it was a tight fit for a car... but is fairly tricky for a tourist coach all the same .

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

when is a mini roundabout not a "mini" roundabout?

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=51.615 ... h&hl=en-GB

I saw a micra driver clip this one today... with his n/s wheels... steered so hard for the 3rd exit he had to correct left before turning right again to exit the roundabout, so effectively drove round it the wrong way! It was all at about 4mph though, so perfectly safe...

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

That isn't one due to the white circle. That's not in the diagram!

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Andrew.

They did used to be allowed, it needs special authorisation as a non prescribed signs nowadays. there is actually a benefit in them that they aid the conspicuity of the mini rab.

If anyone's interested, the definitive site is here