Safe Speed Forums

After our recent discussions on mini-roundabouts I have done a bit of observation on a couple of these in my local area. Both are at T-junctions.

In both locations, EVERYONE performing a right turn (from either direction) passed over the painted "island". Not a single person avoided it. This seems to be because your natural reaction when you turn right is that you try to give yourself the maximum distance from other traffic approaching the roundabout from your left. This seems more sensible than driving directly towards them and then sharply turning away to avoid the painted circle.

With speed limits we advocate the 85th percentile method so that normal safe behaviour by the mass of the population is not criminalised. Thus, from my small survey and by the same logic, it should be legal to drive over the painted "island".

It would seem that mini-roundabouts are really just enhanced give way signs. If so, then they need better advanced signage of the roundabout layout ahead. One of the sites I checked has the blue arrow sign at the give way lines obscured by another roadsign directly in front of it.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Having designed a few mini roundabouts in my time and from that description, My only thought is that the junction isn't suitable for a mini roundabout. If the majority of drivers can't make it over the island, it's either in the wrong place or there's no suitable place for it. If they're designed correctly then it's easy to keep right of the island and still avoid the traffic on the left.

Dougman,

You are entirely correct. There should be traffic lights at these junctions but they cost big money.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

There are a couple of these nonsenses in our local shopping village. I can confirm that, when turning right, I do avoid the white hump....

<occasionally by straddling it, but more often by wrong-siding it>

I don't know if Dougman might comment on this ...

I have now found a Mini-roundabout (MR) with different "Give Way" systems on different entrances. This is at a T-junction and the traffic entering the MR from the left on the main road has a proper Give Way sign and the double dashed lines as described in the other MR thread. The other two entrances to the MR have the single thick dashed line and no Give Way signs.

Did anyone realise that these variants existed?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Yep. I know of a couple in Southampton. (Edit: Map. Edit 2: I just noticed the car on the right. ) But then, I did not know (or care) until I read the TSRGD and found it could have a give way sign too. Nobody seems to approach either type any differently though.

What is the difference between "giving way" and "not causing others to change course or speed"? Surely they are two descriptions of the same act?

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Andrew.

The main problem with mini roundabouts is that the majority of drivers do not or will not treat them as a 'roundabout' where they have to drive very slowly, perhaps that alone is reason enough to get rid of them. The incapability of the majority to use them correctly along with those who dont care to use them correctly makes them a potential hazard purely by the actions of road users and not the roundabout itself. Replace enough of them with long winded traffic lights I say, then perhaps people will use the remaining minis in more disciplined and apreciative manner.

There are a couple of these things here in Crewe. One in the centre of town is virtually impossible to negotiate without going over the white circle if turning right or left, as there is insufficient space to make the turn. I suspect there are many like this, and they are therefore essentially illegal.

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Good manners maketh a good motorist

Perfectly normal. The give way signs and double dashed lines should really only be installed if there is a noticed problem of drivers ignoring the advisory give way line, otherwise the single thick line and circular sign should be used.

In fact, the diagram in the Traffic Signs Manual shows this a the only mini rab diagram. (Figure 8-3, page 55). Also has the information about the single/double lines.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with them replacing it with intelligent, correctly timed and synchronised traffic lights. In fact as a pedestrian, I find mini-roundabout junctions are the hardest to cross. I don't think people would mind traffic lights if those on the main road were only stopped at one set.

This costs more though so the bean counters win.

I think most of those that used to have "give way to major road" give-ways that have been replaced didn't really need treatment - they fixed what wasn't broken.

There are a few in a town near me which have replaced "T" junctions but with (in my view) a rather half-hearted attempt to widen the road to accommodate them. I certainly couldn't use one to do a "U-turn" in my car! Most people do tend to drive over at least part of them (including me!) but they still seem to work just fine, in other words pretty much everyone treats them like a roundabout in terms to who has priority over who, despite driving over parts of them. Still, I guess it's only a matter of time before the "compliance for compliance's sake" brigade start installing cameras on them to monitor tyre transgressions!

I was once pulled over by trafpol and when I asked what offence I'd committed, got the excuse that I'd 'run over' the mini island with two of my wheels. I was then asked for a breath test (the real reason for being pulled) and which proved perfectly clear. I then asked trafpol to hang around and stop every vehicle transgressing his so-called 'law' with respect to mini islands. The first vehicle was a large van, followed by a bus and several cars. As we stood and watched, not one of these cleared the island and as the many tyre marks testified, nor had any others in the recent past. Plod merely shrugged his shoulders and mumbled something about planning and stuff but failed to stop any one of these 'arch criminals' and bring them to justice. I gave plod one of those looks (the ones we hold in reserve for such moments) and bade him goodbye.

Several such incidents have left me with a distaste for involvement with anything plod-wise and if ever asked to co-operate with enquiries or such, I do what many of my fellows do - politely decline and walk away.

There are two points which I think have come out in my looking at these Mini-roundabouts.

The first is yours in that they are just enhanced "give way" markings and the centre paint dot is really an irrelevance.

The second is that the psychology of driving is what makes us drive over the paint. We naturally drive in a way that gives us maximum space between ourselves and other road users (the S in COAST). You are going against this when turning right at an MR and trying to keep off the paint. You have to drive close to and towards other traffic approaching from your left and this makes us uneasy. Your own speed is irrelevant. The natural and safest thing to do is to turn away from perceived danger and go over the paint. This is why almost everyone does this.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Not me. I wrong-side them

So by this statement, the traffic directly opposite and the traffic comming from your right is insignificant? Your own speed irrelevant??

Mini roundabouts just enhanced 'give way markings' ...no its a mini roundabout.

Psychology of driving making us drive over the paint?........perhaps your right in the sense that impatience, poor skill and judgement, ignorance of the rules and law and sometimes stupidity are part of the psychology of most drivers.

The more I read on the subject of mini roundabouts the more Im aware of the number of excuse makers who probably are not all they are cracked up to be. There are no doubts in my mind that MRs are a failure and should be removed, but they are only a failure because of drivers not because of the roundabout itself. The majority of people I witness blatantly cutting across the painted area are in no way mentally or physically following correct roundabout procedure, also the more I read the more I see defence of what is poor driving. Everyone in the average car will clip the edge of the centre painted area from time to time, nearly always through haste but occasionally through MR design, but its the blatant disregard for them that makes them a failure. They are primarily there to SLOW traffic right down at those locations while allowing an equal flow chance from each direction.

The psychology of road users for me is that the majority are simply in a hurry everywhere with misguided self belief in every circumstance and cannot see it in themselves, its the same with people who fail to come to a complete stop at a stop junction and the same for people who only look right at a give way junc when turning left, they think what they do is safe and quicker, also the same attitude in drivers who jump amber and red lights and probably try to justify it on sites like this one. Also tailgaters think that what they do is normal or quicker or gains them some advantage when it never does.With mini roundabouts people just dont want to drive as slow as is required to negotiate them anything like correctly and makes such drivers no better than the other typical driver faults I have mentioned.



Those comments just add to my opinion that the majority of people are in fact poor drivers.

I drove in a town I know well yesterday and with this thread in mind I went through the limited visibility streets where I knew at least 12 MRs on an old training route where I went over them all, turning right at the tightest ones. I never had a problem negotiating them without touching the painted area on 11 of them and only on one where I just brushed the edge with rear wheel. They are there to slow you down, I slowed down, I had no problems, so any problems you lot perceive must be your problems.

Mini roundabouts aren't designed to slow you down, they are designed to improve the flow of traffic. (surely?) You might have to slow down on approach but that goes for a lot of things.

Rules are just the opinions of the person/people who wrote them. I don't believe the opinion of those people is better than the opinion of the people who are actually using the junction.

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Andrew.

There is no traffic on the right. You only enter the MR when there is nobody coming from the right. It's too risky that they won't give way to you. The traffic from the straight on direction is similar to that coming from the left and is, in fact, from your left once you start to turn.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Rules are created based on evidence/facts and common sense leading to the determination of the rule and its meaning and purpose, it is far from the OPINION of One person and reading your answer I worry about your level of self importance and arrogance whenever you take to the road.

So at a MR where visibility is almost completely obscured to the right until you actually reach it your theory still works does it? Also vehs directly oposite may feel that you might just follow the correct proceedure for a right turn and continue turning left or going straight on for example and expecting enough time to do so, but ooops! I forgot, you are one favouring cutting across the island rather than do that arent you? I have seen this happen more than enough times, where two vehs approach, and the veh going straight on enters first but a split second later the pratt opposite turning right just cuts across and is most put out by the presence of the other veh and isnt it always the case where the plonker doing things wrong always feels they are right. I enjoyed being a witness to one such crunch as I was teaching at the time (good lesson for the pupil too), when the cops took details and pratt was charged on the spot 'driving without due care' he still thought he was right, I laughed so hard when the cop asked him how he accounted for his veh half of which was still mounting the central island.

Mini roundabouts are a failure and a hazard because of those who FAIL to use them correctly not because of the mini roundabout itself.