Safe Speed Forums

Are sheep alowed on motorways? .... they are to blame..

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Not the way I see it. If you keep all the circumstances the same but remove the sheep, the accident wouldn't happen (i.e. would not be "caused"). Naturally, it's my FAULT, but I don't see "fault" and "cause" as necessarily being the same thing.

If Monica Bellucci's blouse comes undone, and the last thing I remember seeing is that, and my car's front bumper collides with another rear bumper - I pray not hers - a case can certainly be made that the wardrobe malfunction was the root external cause of the accident.

I am the driver, so I am responsible. My libido is to blame, and certainly proximately responsible, but since I am ultimately responsible for that as well, nothing changes.

The sheep would be the root cause; its lack of a motive or legal presence can't negate its existence.

How much blame should we lay on the shepherd for failing to tend to his flock? Or the road engineer who for got to erect some sort of barricade?

Guns don't kill people, bullets do, but ultimately, shooters are responsible ... yet I would personally assign myself a portion of the blame were I not wearing my bulletproof vest.

Blame is a subjective symptom of human ego. It is unnecessary and insufficient as far as learning from mistakes and preventing the repetition of those mistakes are concerned. We'd like to believe that blame is necessary because we are incapable of imagining society without it.

If you could not have reasonably avoided striking that sheep, then I have one more question I need answered before I am willing to blame you:

Why?

Others may be quicker to point the finger, however, which is why blame is subjective, by definition.

The preceding was an opinion. If you lose any sleep over it, it's your fault.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

But this is like saying, for instance, that if the traffic lights turned red and if the car in front stopped and I crashed into the car in front then the traffic lights/other car was the cause of the accident rather than my lapse of concentration.

It is impossible to prevent "causes" sach as sheep, traffic lights etc without everybody just staying at home.

_________________
Nick

I'm sure this "it wasn't my fault" attitude comes from childhood, like when a child runs into a table and starts crying it's common for the mother to bang the table and say "naughty table".

She knows it wasn't the table's fault, she just wants the child to stop crying, but telling the child it was the table's fault I'm sure means it might carry the attitude into adulthood and that one day, when said child blams round a corner and whacks into a sheep that's strayed into the road that they couldn't possibly have seen until it was too late, they'll blame the sheep.

Whenever one of my kids run's/falls into/onto something and starts crying I always ask if the object they crashed into is OK.

Cruel father I know

_________________
Nick

I also don't think it is wise to 'tank around a blind bend' presumably at speed, ("tanking"), it's just asking for trouble.

However just because is it legal to travel at 50 on a motorway, and a crowded one at that (M25 in rush hours) it is also not a very wise thing to do if everybody else is travelling at a higher speed, (assuming your vehicle can travel at more than 50). Keep with the prevailing traffic and keep a good distance from the vehicle in front is the best way to proceed, and safest. French autoroutes have a minimum speed for each lane, slowest for L1, higher for L2 & L3. I can't remember the exact values though. I did see a freeway, in St Louis, USA, with minimum speed of 40 mph.

_________________
Good manners maketh a good motorist

What if the timing of the yellow light was tampered with to increase the redlight camera's profitability? If the timing of your yellow lights is safe from tampering, then you are luckier than I, because only when my govt's share of the redlight cameras' profits began to drop, did they admit to tampering with the timing.

If the system is not willing to admit that it can be part of the problem, it is highly unlikely that it will provide meaningful solutions. It is more likely that it will point the finger at you.

You are probably a better parent than the idiot who is breeding another idiot by saying 'naughty table' before the child is old enough to get the joke.

If everyone else is doing 77MpH on the Long Island ExpressWay, and you are doing 55MpH because the posted speed 'limit' is 55MpH, watch how fast you get pulled over for driving too slow - and yes, the minimum speed limit is 40MpH on the LIE.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

Pretty much, yes. I agree insofar as I believe that the "cause" would be the lights changing and the "fault" (i.e. "blame") would be mine. HOWEVER, I'm not sure I fancy the example much as traffic lights are rather more visible than sheep and they don't change without warning - in that there is an amber light too. I think a better one would be where I drive into the back of someone who stops at a roundabout because I think there's a big eough gap for them and they decide there isn't and stop. Again, I think the "cause" is them stopping and the "blame" lies with me.

Funny enough, that's EXACTLY what my mum used to do whenever I got acosted by a malevolent piece of furniture when I was a kid! However, it hasn't had that effect on me - as should (hopefully!) be evident from my posts!

No it isn't wise. I don't do it and I've never hit a sheep - this is just an example!!



Sorry, but did you just use the terms "M25", "rush hour" and "speed" in the same sentence?!?!?!?!?!?

Can you imagine the money they could make if they put a minimum 40mph speed limit on the M25 - automatically enforced by cameras that would take no notice of the traffic conditions of course.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

I would concur with this conclusion. We have this horrible tendancy to blur the definition of fault and cause, primarily I suspect because if we can find blame there is a law suit to be had!

Years ago I had an experience which I think illustrates the point, I was waiting to turn right into a junction on a busy road (40mph speed limit). Due to the density of traffic a queue of 6 cars had built up behind me, waiting for me to complete my manoeuvre. I then heard the most dreaded of noises, loud bangs and glass shattering, the road was now clear so I hoofed it into the junction just as the car behind me lurched forward (just missing my rear bumper).

I stopped and returned to the junction, where seven cars were now several feet shorter due to a car failing to pay attention to the road ahead had ploughed straight into the back of the queue of traffic.

Now we can argue that I caused the crash because had I not been waiting to turn, the cars behind me would not have been stationary, however the blame clearly lies with the dozing driver who slammed into the back of the waiting cars.
Personally I think it is important to maintain a clear distinction between cause and blame.

I will also apologise, I suspect this post is littered with spelling mistakes, but I am in a hurry and didn't spell check (my bad).

Er no, the crash was caused by the driver who wasn't looking where they were going.

If you say you were the cause for waiting to turn right and causing a queue you could also say the driver that rammed into the back of the queue was the cause for ever being born.

Everyone that ever lived has, at some stage, been born though. What is the point you're trying to make anyway? Is it that "blame", "fault" and "cause" are all the same thing? If not, what definitions would you prefer to put forward? I still maintain that, by my preferred definition, an accident can be "caused" by someone (or some thing) that was not to "blame".

My point was that if somebody rolls up behind somebody doing 50mph on a motoroway and pulls out into L2 and collides with somebody turning in from L3 then the person doing 50mph on L1 is not the cause of the crash.

Seems telling that some people will automatically assign cause to the person or animal they perceive not to be behaving in a way that's condusive to them keeping their foot down and proceeding without having to worry about actually "driving" a car (i.e making it go forwards without hitting stuff).

You do not live in the country. We do. Sheep do escape.. even after the big FMD problem
Sadly.. we have to report such road kill. If a rabbit or other.. I tell Wildy or she tells me. We eat really WILD food then
The one thing in the news which made both of us not feel like eating was a report that the price of rat meat had soared because of demand. I am sorry.. I cannot just fancy eating "rat" despite the "feline" thing. URGGH! No thanks. I like what Wildy does with the "sausages to die for" from our local farm shoppe

so nope.. I I killed rat or hedgehog or squirrel .. I do not think I would be scraping up for tea. A rabbit .. differnenbt. Deer. and cattle .. I think we may be the worse for the encounter.

Guess it's back to our COAST I know the area. I know where the sheep and cows graze. I know where the gap or low jump over the wall is as far as they are concerned. But COAST? As taught by the master .. In Gear and his chums.. . It means you are always on the alert for the "suddenly and from nowhere types" It does not happen as nothing is actually "suddenly and from nowhere"

We are RIGHT with COAST. Be warned .. we have insructions to really heat up our COAST call. IG has been a bit over -acidic in my opinion . but he's

Cut that guy in half.. Bib indelibly printed along the cross-section

But seriously. Honestly.,. we have lots of problems to sort out here.

UK is falling behind EU in the stats .. year to date apparently. We need to get a grip.. and really work with police and COAST here,. We are hitting the COAST button big time now. UK has to regain its poll position. It has slumped per the latest from the EU, I lay cheap gimmicks as prime cause. The foreigners at least use their BiB properly. Yes .. they have cams and all the daft stuff.. but they rely more on the tried, tested and true of the real copper.. whereas the UK?

Cut corners .. and we still fail to learn the lessons of the 1970's film "Towering Inferno"! if you like .. whereby jerry built short term standards and cheap gimmicks .. cost lives.

EU formally test COAST skills more. Their Highway Code versions are a lot more instructive and a real handbook to a novice. Their tests are more stretching of the would-be driver too. Nothing dumbed down then .. and I have recently recruited foreigners to train in my virology unit here as the UK bunch failed the exams :roil: We are not getting "cleverer". We are making the exams match our lower expectations of folk if we are to be really blunt about where our "progress" is going.

This is reflected in the inabilty to calculate 10% without a calculator. work out hoe to get from A to B without a Sat Nav.. and failing to use any common sense or even a brain cell as a result

Not rockety science
(as the calls it .. )


to work out how far we travel in one second at any darned speed... but folk do not seem to possess this abiilty .. and it can lead to injustices in the speed watch "fob off" in its initial "sell mode".. which then evaporate into a nothing.


But backto the topic.. on a motorway... you drive in a match to the conditions as in any other situation.

If a driver decides to keep at 50 mph . he should stay in L1. 50 mph is relatively acceptable in L1. Anything less than this and you may incur a tug from the police as I did once when "limping the Stag" to the next exit. Police understood its problem when explained .. and helped me get to a garage I suppose manner and attitude . plus mutual respect of cars and competent drivers must count for something. Apart from the sheer professionalism displayed from all of us on the encounter at the time.

It's about safety and too low a speed on the motorways presents a danger equal to someone racing through a 20 mph Lakeland village at over 70 mph But I am sure the person who does and gets reported to the police on my unsubstantiated say-so. is just as annoyed as the person who allegedly pushes an envelope through a rural idyll without any proof when tackled over such dangers Or rather annoyed at letters.. but maybe not so annoyed as bemused, intigued and perhaps more willing to learn if the police call to have a "tactful and non threatening chat over road safety and driving".

I am of course thinking of those nice cops we know.. Ian and IG.. The Man .. Nigel and Stephen...

Our bottom line remains COAST.. Use it. You drive safely and competently all the time. Yes . we can drive a blip above lolly in COAST.. a in cam terms. but I guess the system enhances observation of such scams And not. it does not mean "manipulate a scam". either. It means folk observe .. and plan .. and keep legal most of the time

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Familyman, ..... (couldn't find the Quote button,sorry!) "70mph with a caravan isn't safe"?.....

Familyman, over the last 30 yrs I have travelled Europe with a caravan in tow on their mainly 2 lane autobahns at a constant (cruise controlled) 80mph for Thousands upon thousands of miles for 3 decades in France, Belgium, Holland,Germany, Czech Republick,Luxembourg, Austria,Switzerland,Italy,Spain etc not including my domestic UK milage. "I"...am wrong of course and... "you" ..are right. But "I" have never had an accident or "moment" despite overtaking at up to 90mph and "occasionaly" at 100MPH! for short distances.

My friend, it is all about your choice of car, caravan, maintenance, loading and experience..................unless of course you know better?

My main problem is the cretin driving at 50 mph in the middle lane who won't move over and "I" can't by law use lane 3 and is oblivious to my plight and anger at their selfish attitude despite the absence of other traffic and my flashing headlights!..............

So in the end, I have to break the law and undertake them in lane 1......the safest option!

P.S. Familyman, Your wish to"Save fuel by driving slowly" is the very last thing that you should be doing in fast moving traffic on a: MOTORWAY! .............Please go elsewhere before you cause a serious accident. At that speed it is just a question of time, if not for you, then for someone else....

If this is true and you want to know why then you only need look at some of the attitudes as displayed on this thread IMO.

We've got people saying that if you crash into a sheep when coming round a corner the sheep is the cause of the crash, and then this:



I mean that 's worded like a threat!

Er ..Neither me nor Mrs In Gear have told off the table or the toys for being "naughty" if our kids managed to hurt themsleves on them. Our reaction has always been

"Well you should have looked where you were going"

The Mad Cats though .. went to Llandudno for a day trip. Blimey,., North Wales. It was when Bodnant had its Laburnum highlight in bloom .. on that rare sunny day we had in May Yes they were amused by a horse box which their kids said had a "right funny looking horse"

Anyway.. there's rather a nice paddling pool there. Their youngest would not venture in as it "was too cold".. then started runnning around and ran straight into it without looking. They said her shrieks at hitting this cold water more or less head on deafened them And when she complained and grizzled .. they apparently said that she knew the water was there and that it was cold. She should have been looking where she was going if she did not wish to get wet. The child will be aged 4 years in October.


But sheep straying into the road. We usually tell the farmer or shepherd to go rescue it. We have, in the past, had to trundle down the A1M, close off the lanes and try to round up these animals ourselves before they help cause an accident.. and then send the bill for our trouble to the hapless farmer who should have made sure his fencing was at least secure to prevent "escapes".

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.