Safe Speed Forums

Hi All, This is my first post and I am hoping someone can help.
I have been doing a few nights work for a haulage company driving an artic HGV. This is a trial period to prove myself before they offer me a full time job (I have just been made redundant so need this job desperately).
I was driving back from Morrison's in Northwich on the A556 heading towards the M6. I was travelling at 53 MPH as it was down hill and the truck increased speed slightly but I was correcting it back down to 50MPH by braking. A camera flashed me at 53MPH and I though it was just a warning to slow down as I was only 3 MPH above the 50MPH limit for HGVs on dual carriageways.
The company phoned me today and said they had received a letter asking who the driver was so they have sent my information back to the enforcement office, I am presuming I will now get a letter direct. Work said the letter says I was travelling at 53MPH in a 40 zone! I have done a search on the internet and found I have made the same GENUINE mistake as lots of other HGV drivers do, the A556 is not classed as a dual carriageway but a single even though there are two lanes both sides of the road in some places is separated by barriers or grass verges.
Before everyone starts shouting saying I was speeding and I deserve the points/fine, I genuinely drove along that road at 50MPH believing it was a dual carriageway. It was 12:15 at night, pitch black and the first time I had been down that road. There are huge signs saying the limit is 60MPH for cars but nothing for HGVs and the road gives misleading information.
Can anyone please give me advice on how I should proceed with the impending proceedings as I genuinely was not speeding on purpose. My other problem is the company wont employ me if I have 6 points on my licence (I have 3 already for a car related offence)
Thanks Rod

Hi "Bigfella" unfortunately you will have to accept the prosecution as sadly it is a camera with a sensor that detects when a vehicle is legally restricted to 40 mph (HGV`s etc) or not as a lot of drivers have been caught by this particular camera as I know it well even though I haven,t been caught by it.

Personally I don,t see why Morrisons would hold it against you with regards to giving you a full time contract / job but then again I am not the transport mgr. at this depot as to my mind speed cameras are a risk of the job and it wasn,t done maliciously just a genuine mistake.

As the law is at the moment a dual carriageway is separated by a centre reservation such as a grass verge or something similar so I would personally advise you to accept the 3 points and a fine.

_________________
"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

a quick look on the satellite view on google maps shows the bypass section to be mostly DC, the main drag to the motorway has pretty much no central res. apart from a couple of junctions & turn lanes perhaps.

Hi, Sorry I don't work for Morrison's... I was just delivering there. I work for an independent haulage company. If what everyone says is right then I am about to get 3 points and loose my job! Great Christmas the family and I going to have.

Thank you everyone for all your help and advice.
Cheers Rod

Hi "ed_m" on google maps you are right it is for the most part D/C but the section he was talking about is the short section from the M6 jct 19 to the right fork which takes you in to Northwich town centre as that is where the D/C starts.

The camera he is talking about is the one just after the traffic lights where you turn left off the A556 to Knutsford town centre and unfortunately it is a notorious camera for catching speeding HGV`s exceeeding the limit of 40mph as the camera has a sensor either on the road or on 2 poles just beyond it to distinguish between the vehicles.

The only thing he might be able to do is ask for the type approval cert. of the camera and sensor and to ask has it been approved by the govnmt. but this agini is a long shot and may have alrady been asked.

_________________
"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

There used to be a page on the Cheshire scameraship website specifically about this section of the A556 but it doesn't seem to be there any more.

http://www.mysaferroads.org.uk/

It's a very common misapprehension that a four-lane single carriageway road is actually a dual carriageway, and it might be a good idea for the Highway Code to state clearly that a dual carriageway is defined by the presence of a central reservation, not by having two or more lanes in each direction.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

if you do not accept the fixed penalty and wait for the summons you could at least delay the inevitable. Another advantage is that the summons may not arrive. 6 months down the line the employment situation may be less dire. If the summons arives you have to decide wether to plead guilty or not. You also have time to check out wether the speed camera was in single or duel carriageway. However once a summons has arrived 3mph is just as guilty as 13mph. if you paid the £60 and submitted your licence before the court case it should be accepted, it was for a minister! You have a legal right to go to court , however the fine isa going to be a bit highr andthey will add £15 victim of crime tax. By pleading not guilty you could delay this for 1-2 years but the costs could be very high. (or in extreme cases 4 years LOL)

What dates are your existing convicions? Will any of the offence dates be over 3 years old and spent in a few months time?

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

If you were waiting for a summons...

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/docs ... nglish.pdf

3.2 Crown Prosecutors make charging decisions in accordance
with the Full Code Test (see section 5 below), other than in
those limited circumstances where the Threshold Test applies
(see section 6 below).

THE PUBLIC INTEREST STAGE
5.6 In 1951, Lord Shawcross, who was Attorney General, made
the classic statement on public interest, which has been
supported by Attorneys General ever since: “It has never been
the rule in this country — I hope it never will be — that
suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject
of prosecution”. (House of Commons Debates, volume 483,
column 681, 29 January 1951.)

Some common public interest factors against prosecution
5.10 A prosecution is less likely to be needed if:
--''--
c the offence was committed as a result of a genuine
mistake or misunderstanding (these factors must be
balanced against the seriousness of the offence);


If you were to write to the CPS you may be able to persuade theem that it was a genuine mistake and not in the public interest...

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

thanks thats pretty much what i concluded, thought id take a quick look as i was passing that way not long ago.
the OP made the road layout sound a bit ambiguous but it seems/seemed at the time fairly clear.

not to say you're not going to have to have your wits about you when there are cams around and you're trying to stick to truck limits.

Hi Guys, Just wondering... its been a few weeks now since the dreaded photo but I have not heard from them yet. My company got the NIP and they filled it in with my details. Is there a time limit on how long before they can prosecute me? I know the NIP needs to be delivered within 14 days of the offence which it was, but what about after the driver (me) has been named, is there a time limit on that too?
Advice/feedback would be appreciated.
Cheers Rod

Its worth a try but, to succeed a professional HGV driver would need to convince them that its a genuine mistake for him not to know that HGVs have a different speed limit. His first post actually says that there 60 signs but "nothing for HGVs" . Was he expecting the HGV limit to be separately signed? If so I very much doubt that this would be accepted as a "genuine mistake".

The Highway Code definition of a dual carriageway is "A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways" . (para 136)
If the central reservation is not continuous he may have more luck with that.

_________________
I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

And i thought thast the court still believed in criminal cases that they should be proved beyond "reasonable doubt"

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

That is indeed the required standard of proof for criminal cases.

_________________
I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Sorry to say you'll have to take this on the chin as stated before, however I know this road well and it is very very well signed as a 50mph limit

The section between M6 Junction 19 and the junction with the A559 at Lostock Island, which the OP was referring to, is explicitly signed as a 60 limit. Still 40 for HGVs, though.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Well folks the day has arrived!!!
The NIP addressed to me finally came through the letterbox this morning. Now I saw through the paper what it was so I have not opened it yet.
Does anybody know what would happen if I wrote return to sender and pop it back in the post? I think someone said if the NIP is not given to me within 6 months they cant prosecute, is this correct?
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Cheers

Unwise IMHO.

Sounds to me like attempting to PTCOJ. If it went to court you may be asked if you wrote "Return to Sender" on the envelope. You'd then either exacerbate the matter further with perjury (they may well do the handwriting expert thing or seek out postie to swear he delivered it...) or admit PTCOJ.

However, I know of no precedent.

The only way this case can legally time out is if they dont present papers with the court in six months.

If it had taken 3-4 months to reach you and you waited untill 27 days to send back your nip and then a week or two later they gave you 28 days to accept a conditional offer ... etc etc.. then there is a very short window where they can lay papers with the court.

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Hi Folks, Just to put a close to the link I took the points and fine that come with it. I was unable to work for the company because of the extra points on my licence (insurance reasons) so I am now unemployed and searching for work!
Thanks for all your help and advice.
Drive safe, cheers Rod

I know this road very well as I have delivered to Morrisons Gadbrook lots. I know it isn't a dual carriageway as I was warned before I ever drove the road. What I would like to know is why is it signed as 60mph? National speed limit for a single carriageway road (which this officially is) is 60mph for cars. Technically it should then be signed as a national speed limit. I wonder how many cars would be caught going through at 70mph if it were correctly signed.
I am not a speeder and don't intend to be but if cars are looked after on this stretch with 60mph signs, why not put up a HGV reminder too. I know we are professionals and should know everything there is to know but a mistake is a mistake. If a reminder sign was up and HGV's were still caught then it's a fair cop. That's my opinion anyway!
Mike.