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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 23:27 
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/drivin ... 864847.ece

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Road speed limit cut to 50mph
Steven Swinford

THE government is to cut the national speed limit from 60mph to 50mph on most of Britain’s roads, enforced by a new generation of average speed cameras.

The reduction , to be imposed as early as next year, will affect two thirds of the country’s road network. Drivers will still be able to reach 70mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 60mph on the safest A roads.

Jim Fitzpatrick, the roads minister, defended the plan, which will be the most dramatic cut since 1978, when the national speed limit was reduced from 70mph to 60mph.

“There will be some in the driving lobby who think this is a further attack and a restriction on people’s freedom,” he said. “But when you compare that to the fact we are killing 3,000 people a year on our roads, it would be irresponsible not to do something about it. I’m sure that the vast majority of motorists would support the proposals.”

New research by the Department for Transport has found that reducing the speed limit could save 200-250 lives a year and also reduce carbon emissions.

Britain’s roads were the safest in the world until 2001, relative to its population, but have since fallen into sixth place behind countries such as the Netherlands, Sweden and Norway. Some challenge that statistic because of the disparity of the countries’ sizes.

The new 50mph limit is intended to reduce the high death toll on rural roads, where, in 2007, 69% of car crash fatalities took place. It will apply to single carriage A, B and C roads. Local authorities will have the power to raise the limit to 60mph on the safest roads, but will have to justify it.

Ministers plan to use average speed cameras, which monitor speeds over distances of up to six miles, to help enforce the new limit. The cameras have already been installed at 43 locations. The Home Office is expected to approve their wider use later this year.

Speed Check Services, the company behind the cameras, claims the number of deaths or serious injuries at its sites has fallen on average by 60%.

Fitzpatrick said: “If you look at the figures on rural roads, there are disproportionately more people dying there than on any other roads. The nature of some rural roads, with dips and bends and difficult conditions, means that the 60mph limit is not enough.”

The 50mph proposal will be laid out in a consultation document to be published in the early summer.

Edmund King, president of the AA, warned that the move could alienate some motorists. Last year the AA asked 17,481 motorists if the limit on single carriageway roads should be cut to 50mph. Nearly half backed the move but 38% opposed it.

He said: “There are quite a few single carriageway rural roads that are straight and adequately wide, where 60mph – in the right conditions, driving sensibly — is not a problem.

“The danger of the blanket approach is: are you going to then reduce speed limits just for the sake of it where you don’t need to? That’s where you lose the respect or the support of the motorist.

“We all know some rural roads where the 60mph limit is ridiculous, although there are equally others where it suits. So it is a case of getting that balance.”

:yikes:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 00:39 
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What will they do when this doesn't produce a lasting reduction in KSIs? Reduce the speed further?

Get your red flags ready!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 02:46 
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This is beyond belief. How can we depose these clowns immediately?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 08:45 
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This is utterly sickening! We need to vote these clowns out before they do any more damage! I can't believe they haven't grasped that despite the most draconian automated enforcement programme in Europe we are STILL slipping down the league table for safe roads! Talk about "the medicine isn't working - double the dose"!!!!

I see it's also reported on a Yahoo page with the usual "gems" like:

"...In 2007 there were 2,946 deaths and 30,000 serious injuries on British roads, with speed being a factor in 29% of them...." (now that they can't say it "caused" them!)

and then just a few lines down:

"...There are also suggestions that a formal "drug-drive limit" could be introduced, after statistics showed a fifth of all road deaths were caused by drivers on illegal substances."

So, according to THEIR OWN statistics:

20% caused by DRUG DRIVERS

5%(?) caused by exceeding the speed limit!!!!

Obviously, they need to lower the speed limits to get that percentage up to justify lowering the speed limits...

...oh, hang on! That's a circular argument!

I really despair!


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090308/tu ... 23e80.html

(If anyone wants to read this ridiculous drivel)!

They love their claims of massive reductions "at the camera sites" and yet they don't seem to think it odd that over the country as a whole, nothing changes significantly! I wonder what the excuse will be when the entire country is one big camera site?!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 09:37 
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RobinXe wrote:
What will they do when this doesn't produce a lasting reduction in KSIs?


They will say "The reduction in speed limit has not worked so we will restore the old limit." , won't they. :(

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:32 
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UNBELIEVABLE madness from these fools who know nothing at all about road safety. I don't suppose anyone in government has the intelligence to compare casualty figures for when the 70MPH NSL was reduced to 50MPH and then when it was raised from 50 to 60MPH? This all happened in a few short years when cars changed very little, so casualty figures for these years would, presumably, show what difference the speed limit change had on casualties. It would be my guess, that it had VERY LITTLE effect.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:59 
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It's just one further step into automating the driver. More and more these days, no doubt partly due to many artificially low limits, drivers are in the habit of not having to regulate their own speed because it's possible to drive continuously on the limit. Whilst there maybe a higher proportion of accidents on these roads (due to the nature of many country roads), identifying hazards and adequate warning would be much more effective. It feels like the limit is not being set at a maximum anymore, but a minimum speed at which you can drive the entire stretch of road.

"oh, there's a corner that you can only take at 30? Better reduce the entire 10 mile NSL stretch to a 30 limit then, especially as there was a fatal accident there when someone took it at 45".

On the subject of raising limits, if the blanket 50 limit was then raised again after 2 or 3 years, the habits it's likely to have encouraged would make it very dangerous to then raise the limit again.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:03 
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Oh come on.

We all know that this is nothing to do with road safety policy. It is about having an excuse to roll out ANPR technology nationwide to track our every movement.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:08 
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I can't entirely agree that raising the limit again after 2-3 years would make it VERY dangerous. In the mid seventies the limit was dropped to 50 from 70 and then re-raised to 60MPH for single carriageways after only a couple of years and I don't recall it making the roads dangerous. I do however, fear that some people would get used to a 50MPH maximum and fail to re adjust but then these would probably be the sort of people who don't drive much and probably don't go above 45MPH much, even now.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:53 
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Dusty wrote:
Oh come on.

We all know that this is nothing to do with road safety policy. It is about having an excuse to roll out ANPR technology nationwide to track our every movement.

+1 !!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:03 
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Wildy posted up some stats from Germany. They indicate KSI rates have fallen.

They show the fast roads to be their SAFEST.

But the stats reveal that the same risk factors of poor standards,immaturity of the 18-24 year olds, drink/drugs and errors with regard to overtakes, judging gaps, corners accurately seem to be the prime causes.

Speed is not the issue then.

Attitudes are.


Now we've tried to encourage folk out there to think COAST which happens to be the system used on police DIS/Speed Awareness courses.

But some are perhaps unteachable ignorants ... like the bigot I had on an IAM observation a bit back. I was seriously un nerved by his driving. Tailgating.. cutting in .. zero mirror use and zero concept of the other road user.

When I tried to debrief the guy tactfully at the end of this hour of hell whereby I felt like the driving instructor in the Bob Newhart sketch - he claimed all the other drivers were idiots. I did invite him to my car and drove him around to try to get him to see that he did not need to sit on someone's tailpipe. His remark? I drove like

Quote:
a limpet to speed limits



My point in mentioning this?


I fear an accident waiting to happen and reducing a speed limit will not stop his accident to be.

We do not need to reduce speed limits. We have an urgent need to improve driver training and attitudes out there.

As for ANPR .. tracking . surveillance... etc.

The UK is the most observed nation in the West.


It is the most lawless of all. Has high crime rates. Low detection rates, When you compare and contrast the statistics of all Europe :wink:


Right - now back to see my wife in hospital.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:13 
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I have two pretty fast cars and I am an enthusiastic motorist.

Their on-board average speed measuring systems both show an average of about 35mph in mixed driving with few motorway journeys.

Not looking good for average speed cameras is it?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 16:22 
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They are not average speed cameras.
They are video cameras, the software produces the average speed calculation. Separate software has already analysed the data to produce the index plate number.
At the end of the day, and the beginning, they are video cameras with very good infra-red capability. They can produce pictures of the driver and front-seat passenger.
Please carry-on with "lets get rid of these clowns".
The clowns that should be got rid of will still be there no matter which political flavour is crowned as king.
The amount of non-governmental bodies/persons having a massive say in legislation is increasing all the time.
Non elected.
Non representative.
Virtually unassailable.
And that is just this country.
Then we have the European commission.
Oh, and when the overall speed limit is 50mph, will you still say I should give-way to faster drivers when I am doing 50 ?

http://news.aol.co.uk/proposal-to-cut-national-speed-limit/article/20090308080209990001

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 16:55 
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jomukuk wrote:
Oh, and when the overall speed limit is 50mph, will you still say I should give-way to faster drivers when I am doing 50 ?


No, and I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that you should when going at the limit.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 18:05 
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nice balanced question then.
from the AOL site
Quote:

Should the national speed limit be cut?
Yes - Have to think safety first
No - Nanny state curbing my freedoms
Don't know


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 18:23 
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Yes, it's interesting that the majority are against it and the majority of comments on the Times site are against it too....so where do the AA get their figures that the majority of motorists asked thought that it was a good idea???

This government has no idea about safety. In 2005 they brought out the part P electrical regs to cut down on the 19 deaths a year from electricution, I read about a year ago that the death rate had gone UP to 25.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 18:55 
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Going to have to disagree with everyone here. I am actually in support of this (read the entire post before angry replying).

We can say lower speed for the same risk promotes inattention and the accident rate will go up, its easy for the Government to say "Prove it". Make the best out of this and use it as an experiment to show that a lower speed limit won't necessarily bring down the accident rate and we can then use this data to highlight inattention. So let them change it to 50mph until it backfires and then we have real life data against the cameras


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 18:57 
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I'll be writing to my local mp and Jim Fitzpatrick:

jim.fitzpatrick@dft.gsi.gov.uk


Last edited by Johnnytheboy on Sun Mar 08, 2009 19:46, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 19:01 
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This government has no idea about safety. In 2005 they brought out the part P electrical regs to cut down on the 19 deaths a year from electricution, I read about a year ago that the death rate had gone UP to 25.


Like I said earlier in this thread about the real motives for the speed limit reduction.

Part Pee had little to do with improving electrical safety and an awful lot about increacing the snooping capability of local authorities! :x

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 19:16 
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If average speed cameras become the norm then will there not be a response from drivers? A technological response springs to mind immediately. A simple software change to a satnav will show your average speed between the camera positions. If you have been caught up in traffic or behind a slow vehicle then you can go faster approaching the next cam point. Of course there may be other drivers that have overdone it a bit and decide they need to back off a bit.

This of course will make the roads safer.

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