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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 08:01 
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The Times wrote:
ANALYSIS: electric cars are great - just don't drive over 60 miles
(Andrew Milligan/PA Wire)
Peter Mandelson, right, and Geoff Hoon with the Mini E electric car

Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
Government to offer £5,000 to boost green cars

If you never travel more than 60 miles, an electric car might be worth considering.

However, you would also have to be willing to pay at least double the cost of a conventional car and be prepared to fork out several thousand pounds after five years on a new battery. Then there is the small problem of the car possibly being worthless when you try to sell it.

Even if the Government delivers on its pledge today to offer grants of up to £5,000, electric car owners will still be paying a heavy price for flaunting their green credentials.


Times Archive, 1985: C5 goes into top gear
'I was excited when it arrived but the first time I tried it out it would not go up a hill'

Debt halts production of C5
Advertisement: Sinclair C5
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Government to offer £5,000 to boost green cars
Briefing: Electric cars: Plug in, drive off
Ordinary families will not be applying for the grants when they become available in 2011. Businesses and public bodies wanting to be seen to be green will consume most of the £250 million funding pot. A few well-off individuals will be tempted, especially if they get exemption from congestion charging schemes.

A timescale tucked away at the back of the strategy shows that the Government expects the electric car to remain a “niche” product for the next decade.

The funding is only enough for 50,000 cars, compared with 30 million on the roads today.

The strategy concedes, with masterly understatement: “It may take some years before we see ultra-low carbon cars being used on a large scale.”

The strategy is silent on how the grant scheme would work and what kind of cars would qualify. It sets no target, unlike Germany which wants to see a million electric cars on the road by 2020.

Rather than setting a clear path forward, the 16-page document is padded out with photographs of electric cables plugged into cars and platitudinous statements, such as: “Our transport system connects people to places and businesses to markets.”

The real issue for Britain is whether car manufacturers will base any of their electric vehicle production here. Vauxhall is considering building the Ampera, a plug-in hybrid that travels 40 miles on electricity before switching to petrol, at Ellesmere Port in Cheshire.

But without Government support, the car may be built elsewhere in Europe.

Geoff Hoon, the Transport Secretary, and Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, drove an electric Mini around a Scottish racetrack in a publicity stunt today. The Mini’s shell was built in Oxfordshire but the high-value part – the electric drive train – was made in Munich.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/drivin ... 105460.ece

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 08:12 
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All good sounding spin but it will do little.

If you believe this type of assistance is required then it needs to be done now not in several years time. There are a very limited number of vehicles which will qualify. The total money available is also limited.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:12 
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Electric vehicles are good for what electric vehicles are good for (IYSWIM)

I believe that back in the 70's the UK had more EV's than the rest of the world put together. (Ironically the EUSSR put paid to that, though there are sill plently around)

EV's are good for doing a daily (ie 5-6 sorties/week) run on a, more or less, fixed route of not more than 25 or so miles.

They are NOT good for infrequent use (Ie Weekend driving) nor are they particularly suitable for variable routes. and routs with steep hills are to be avoided. Not just because they will be slow on hills but that use in hilly enviroments will seriously reduce the overall battery life.

IE they make great milk floats, local delivery vehicles, urban utility vehicles (roadsweepnig, litter bin emptying etc)

However, they are not a universal panacea. unfortunatly politicians/green types seem incapable of appreciating this (or, if they do, but they dont care)

What is more there are serious materials issues with having any more than a couple of hundred thousand EV's

Ones that are not that easy to solve!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 17:25 
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i've driven several electric vehicles now.... and all of them have a range greater than 60miles and have enough poke.

not sure if such incentives will help, certainly they need to get to volume levels to get better economies of scale and get prices down, but not sure if this will acheive that. and then there's total lack of charging facilities..... and that the best battery technologies are pretty hard to come by in any volume.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 17:47 
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Yes, charging facilities? How are these to be made vandal resistant? :)

The most annoying thing will be the continuous staring at the battery charge gauge (makes a change from the speedo!) and the bad feelling in the stomach that you will not be able to find a recharge station.

It will be like the last fuel shortages - but all the time.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 18:01 
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I can see a comeback for Clive Sinclair and his C5 :D

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 19:21 
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malcolmw wrote:
The most annoying thing will be the continuous staring at the battery charge gauge (makes a change from the speedo!) and the bad feelling in the stomach that you will not be able to find a recharge station.


more negative spin there then.
long distance commuters / sales reps aside almost any EV worth its weight (get it ?) would have plenty of range for the average days driving.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 20:58 
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I think it is a tremendous idea. The government have no money, but need to be seen to be encouraging green-ness.They need to subsidise their green-ness, but that will cost. So why not subsidise something that doesn't exist? There are no electric cars that are going to replace a conventional car, but that isn't their fault, the money is there if we can find one. Obviously where the electricity comes from is not an issue. :roll:

They might as well give a £5,000 bonus to anyone buying supersonic rocket skates.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 21:06 
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ed_m wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
The most annoying thing will be the continuous staring at the battery charge gauge (makes a change from the speedo!) and the bad feelling in the stomach that you will not be able to find a recharge station.


more negative spin there then.
long distance commuters / sales reps aside almost any EV worth its weight (get it ?) would have plenty of range for the average days driving.


Yes, an EV would have done this evening trip to Tesco and the chippy just as well as the car I have, but what about the 400 mile round trip to my families place? And yes, sometimes I go there and back in the same day. For a oil fueled car this is not an issue, it only takes a couple of minutes to refuel and we need a break anyway.

Personally I don't care what my car runs on as long as it is cheap and convenient. Get me an electric car with the same running costs (even the artificially high ones we have) as the one I've got, and the range and ease of refueling and I'll have one.

We have 2 electric forklifts at work and they are great for little jobs, they will probably work for 3 hours without a charge. The LPG forklift will run hard for 3 hours without a refuel, but it only takes 10 minutes to drive to the tank, pump in the gas by hand and get back to work. The leccy ones need a charge all night.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 22:00 
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so many points that i have already raised with my political associates. limited distance, very few eligible people, battery life reducing maximum distance over time. i guess my arguements are valid then :D

as i said to them, until a new generation of cars can match petrol and diesel, they will not be a viable alternative. some people might not be too bothered about losing some factors such as distance but those targetted will live in london and will own a real car as well as their electric car anyway. just like celebrities with their toyota hybrids who hide their hummer in the garage :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 22:15 
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adam.L wrote:
Yes, an EV would have done this evening trip to Tesco and the chippy just as well as the car I have, but what about the 400 mile round trip to my families place? And yes, sometimes I go there and back in the same day. For a oil fueled car this is not an issue, it only takes a couple of minutes to refuel and we need a break anyway.


i'd suggest regular 400mile a day use is not typical.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 23:02 
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Has anyone actually done any research into the average commute, this will tell us whether EVs are viable and what ones. Also you need to consider how people feel about their job stability and what other jobs are available in the area.

Since I'm based on customer sites, my situation is very much on the high end, my GF's situation is more typical. When we moved to our current location - something we did purely because of her new job - She had an 8 mile (each way) commute it was pretty hilly but still well within the range of an EV. She is also quite enthusiastic about EVs though this is more due to the amount of torque they can put out since she's under no illusions as to where the electricity comes from. :twisted:

Unfortunately that job lasted for about 2 months after we moved. She went contracting for a bit (97 mile commute each way) before finding another permanent job, now based in Bath (56 miles each way). If she had bought an EV back when only commuting 8 miles a day neither of these jobs would have been open to her and we'd probably both be bankrupt by now.

We could move to bath, the job is pretty safe, but it's cheaper to live here and commute (the increased rent and council tax will wipe out the petrol savings) and also who is to say if this company is going to stay afloat and if it doesn't we'll just be in the same boat again, so why bother moving? Next job may be in Newport for all we know.

I guess if you live in London where there are lots of jobs and they're all pretty close by then an EV would be great, however London already has lots of EVs, they're called tube trains, unless you plan to be working after midnight you may as well just use those.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 23:05 
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anton wrote:
I can see a comeback for Clive Sinclair and his C5 :D


:roftl:


I quite like milk floats.


But my fave . the golf buggy :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 00:32 
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/17 ... _analysis/

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Register wrote:
Tough on e-vehicles, tough on the causes of e-vehicles
Track this topic Print story Post comment The DfT pretends to have an electric car strategy

By John Lettice • Get more from this author

Posted in Environment, 17th April 2009 12:59 GMT

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Tough on e-vehicles, tough on the causes of e-vehicles? The Government's ultra-low carbon vehicles strategy,* unveiled this week, seems at best a mechanism for keeping UK electric car development in a holding pattern for the next decade, and at worst a cunning, albeit inadvertent, plan to miss the boat entirely.

There will be, say Peter Mandelson and Geoff Hoon, "help worth £2,000 - £5,000 towards buying the first electric and plug in hybrid cars when they hit the showrooms", and these are the headline numbers they'd like you to take away. This funding, however, is part of a "£250 million scheme to deliver a green motoring transformation", and it's at this point that it all starts to come unpicked.

In the wake of the announcement numerous analysts pointed out that using the whole £250 million for subsidies at the £5,000 level would only cover 50,000 cars (total UK car sales in March were just over 300,000). But it's not as straightforward as that - the DfT wants the auto industry to chip in, and says most of the money "will be used to create a scheme to reduce the price of electric and plug-in hybrid cars by around £2,000-£5,000," and that it "will begin discussions with the automotive and finance industries on how this reduction can best be delivered."


The DfT Roadmap expects multiple breakthroughs post 2020. Cross fingers.

Effectively, the DfT would therefore seem to want to crowbar the £250 million into car companies existing discounting and financing plans. The car companies, already heavily leveraged in this area, are unlikely to be enthusiastic, and it's hard to see how the objective of making electric vehicles price-competitive with conventional ones can be achieved.

Nor does the £250 million exist yet, as such. The DfT doesn't envisage the scheme being in place before 2011, and along with specifically confining it to electric and plug-in hybrids (which cuts out the vanilla hybrids that actually exist), it's aiming it at 'normal' cars driven by 'normal' people. "Eligible cars will need to meet strict safety standards, not exceed a maximum CO2 ceiling and be designed for the mass market."

That looks like enough Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt to push the existing, tiny, electric car market (whose sales cratered last year) over the cliff.

Of the total not-quite-real-yet investment, £20 million has been allocated "for charging points and related infrastructure to help develop a network of 'electric car cities' throughout the UK and an expansion of an electric and ultra-low carbon car demonstration project [run by the Technology Strategy Board]on the UK's roads. This project will mean over 200 motorists... will have the opportunity to drive a cutting-edge car and feedback the information to make greener motoring an everyday reality."

Even if all of that £20 million was being invested in charging infrastructure rather than 100 more wacky cars as well, it would be largely symbolic, and the bulk of the funding for credible levels of infrastructure for "electric car cities" will need to come from, er, someone else.

London Mayor Boris Johnson is himself intent on delivering such a city, and is aiming to have 25,000 charging spaces in London by 2015. He estimates that this will cost £60 million, is prepared to fund £20 million of this and is calling on the Government and the private sector to fund the rest.

Matching BoJo's roadmap up with the DfT's, however, raises a few questions. Johnson aims to have 100,000 electric vehicles on London's streets, somewhat lamely, "as soon as possible." His caginess is understandable, but if he does deliver the infrastructure on schedule, he's going to look a bit of a prune if a handful of G-Wizes have 10-20 charging points each. The DfT, however, thinks the next five years will bring "gradual emergence of early market ultra-low carbon vehicles", while "large-scale production" won't commence for five to ten years (i.e. 2014-2019). Only after that, the DfT reckons, will we see "significant market penetration."

The DfT is right - just about - in its belief that 'normal' mass-market plug-in vehicles don't exist yet, and it's quite possibly also right about significant penetration of the whole auto market being at least another ten years off. But it seems to be entirely missing the volume rollouts that are imminent (e.g. the 100,000 planned for Israel in 2010), and it appears not to have given any serious thought to the need to overcome all of the negatives of electric vehicles, all at once, as part of a coherent plan, in order to get the market to take off.

So you need a dense charging network, as Johnson is planning, you need a headline price low enough for electric cars to be competitive with conventional ones, and if you want private industry to chip in, you need to be giving them some idea of how they can make money (say, mobile phone style price plans and/or leasing deals?), as opposed to trying to squeeze extra discounts out of them. And, given the range issues of current and near-term electric vehicles, you probably need to be doing it in a city or a smallish country to start with. Figuring out how to get 100,000 electric vehicles in London would seem a plausible way to start. ®

* Do pause at that URL, and note the Department for Transport's ominous inability to spell "vehicles".



Apologies to Johnny. All the links run to more than 20 lines. All journos must be our kindred GERMANIC spirits then :lol: :bunker: :drink2:

:wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:51 
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ed_m wrote:
adam.L wrote:
Yes, an EV would have done this evening trip to Tesco and the chippy just as well as the car I have, but what about the 400 mile round trip to my families place? And yes, sometimes I go there and back in the same day. For a oil fueled car this is not an issue, it only takes a couple of minutes to refuel and we need a break anyway.


i'd suggest regular 400mile a day use is not typical.


So we need one vehicle for the sub 20 mile trips (there is no way I'd push an electric vehicle to the limit of its theoretical range) and one vehicle for the longer journeys. Parking space at home is limited for most, so how is the need for twice as many vehicles going to help that?

Do they have heaters and if they do what do they run on? Putting a kerosene heater in them will probably negate the perceived environmental benefits.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:45 
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At a guess I would say that the heaters are probably electric.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 13:10 
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Yes, actually, providing a pleasant driving environment will consume a huge amount of energy on a cold day. You get this as a byproduct on a fuel burning engine.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 15:52 
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To avoid confusion, I have changed the title of this thread as the message is that electric cars won't travel more than 60 miles, not that they won't go above 60 mph.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 15:56 
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malcolmw wrote:
Yes, actually, providing a pleasant driving environment will consume a huge amount of energy on a cold day. You get this as a byproduct on a fuel burning engine.

Don't electric motors give off a fair amount of waste heat anyway? Just feel the output from your vacuum cleaner.

And providing the equivalent of a 2KW electric fan heater only uses 3 bhp.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 16:34 
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PeterE wrote:
Don't electric motors give off a fair amount of waste heat anyway? Just feel the output from your vacuum cleaner.

Mains AC motors are notoriously inefficient so I wouldn't use those as a benchmark of motor efficiency.

I hand make small coreless-brushless motors that have efficiencies of ~90% under load (for personal projects); I would hope a professional designer could do better.

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