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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 08:02 
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http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... -23422489/


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/drivin ... 128614.ece
Times wrote:
From The TimesApril 20, 2009

Busy roads, slower speeds, extra taxes – but we'll carry on driving
Two children help their parents wash the family car. March 1953

Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
Britain is more dependent than ever on cars, according to a study published today. Even the poorest families are increasingly reliant on them, and when motoring costs rise they prefer to sacrifice other household spending rather than stop driving.

The number of cars has grown seven times faster than the population. There are 29.6 million cars, up 30 per cent from a decade ago. Over the same period the population has grown by 4 per cent to 60.6 million.

The RAC Foundation commissioned a team of academics from Oxford University, Imperial College and University College London to investigate how reliant Britons were on their cars. They found that people opted for them even for journeys that could easily be walked or cycled and were used for 78 per cent of journeys of two to three miles. Just over three quarters of homes had a car and ownership had grown fastest among the poorest fifth of households, up from 35 per cent in 2000 to 49 per cent in 2006.

The foundation said that government policies purporting to reduce car use — such as raising fuel duty and road tax — could increase social exclusion by penalising poor families. The researchers found a significant fall in the number of homes within easy walking distance of a grocer or chemist.

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In addition to analysing Department for Transport data, the team gathered evidence from focus groups and found scepticism about the potential for replacing car trips with public transport. One 75-year-old participant said: “You can get to town [by bus] all right, but Sainsbury’s is a mile and a half that way, Tesco’s is a mile and half the other way. There’s no supermarket in the centre of town.”

The team detected the beginning of a generational divide in attitudes to car travel, with growing use among the over-70s but falling use among those aged 16 to 29. However, the fall in young people’s car use was partly due to their taking longer to obtain driving licences. Once qualified, they become as reliant on cars as older generations.

The average distance travelled by car per person has stabilised in recent years despite the big increase in ownership. The average car travelled 152 miles a week in 1996 but only 132 miles in 2006. The report said that congestion had caused average speed of trips to fall from 25.7 miles per hour in 1995 to 24.6mph in 2006, possibly discouraging people from making more journeys. However, many drivers preferred to queue in their cars even when they knew that public transport would be quicker. The report quoted a recent Department for Transport study that concluded: “Sitting in congested traffic conditions was seen as being more comfortable than waiting for a train or bus and drivers felt more in control. Drivers also saw the benefits of time alone, safety and independence.”

Women are slightly more dependent on cars than men, using them for about 77 per cent of the total distance they travel, compared with 74 per cent for men.

Professor Stephen Glaister, the foundation’s director, said: “More than four out of five people say they would find it difficult to use their cars less. It is a myth to claim public transport is the magic answer. The Government’s emphasis on high-speed rail ignores the reality of most people’s lives.

“The car is the bedrock of our society and our economy. It has democratised this country. There is no question of getting rid of cars. Instead we must change the type of cars we use — smaller, lighter, more fuel-efficient models with less CO2 emissions.”

He said it would be fairer to tax people for the number of miles they travelled than for owning a car. “The Chancellor should shift emphasis away from taxing people on what they own to what they use. This is likely to be through national road pricing. The trade-off for drivers would be the abolition of road tax and fuel duty, and more spending on the road network



The final sentence would see him to be a deranged fool - given the resounding NO from Manchester and Edinburgh as neither scheme promises any such trade-off .. just more costs to all so how they darned well travelled :banghead:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 08:21 
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And the whole system is geared to make you travel.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 19:18 
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I did a fortnights work in the west end recently. Parking & con charge came to about £350. So the job cost the client that much more. How much more does he think they should charge to stop me from using my van?

You can talk road charge this, low carbon that, eco the other, simple fact remains the work needs doing and you can't get many tools in a prius.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 19:37 
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Or on PT.

I used to work for a interior landscaping (i.e. office plants) firm that experimented with sending staff in to central London on the tube.

It was an unmitigated disaster:

1. Me and another supervisor had to rendezvous with them to drop of supplies of plants etc. which was a logistical headache.
2. Only one girl out of an experimental group of eight new starters actually did a proper job and requested plants etc, the rest ranged between doing the bare minimum and not turning up at all.

We were taken over by another firm and they put a stop to it by which time all except the above girl had left or been sacked. She was quite a eco-hippy and was very relucant to be 'awarded' a shiny new van...

Interestingly I started my job doing the same thing, but going to Heathrow and meeting someone in a van which worked fine, as they had all the equipment and plants.

More interestingly I came across an old colleague recently through work, who was now at a different London firm, and they were sending staff on the tube very successfully. :?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 21:05 
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Hey MM .. you are on a newsy roll here :bow:

Yep .. we need cars. Not easy to do without them .. and you know this more than most with that ginormous family you and the wild one care for.

Few envy you on that. I think most admire you two. I do .. but then I am perhaps biased since we are pals and "third party relatives" through marriage :popcorn:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 21:13 
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Mad Moggie wrote:
The final sentence would see him to be a deranged fool - given the resounding NO from Manchester and Edinburgh as neither scheme promises any such trade-off ..


No. It is the people of Edinburgh and Manchester who are the deranged fools - unable to see beyond there wallets.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 21:46 
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In Gear wrote:
Hey MM .. you are on a newsy roll here :bow:

Yep .. we need cars. Not easy to do without them .


Now thats just put an image in my head of a cop on the number 9 bus "chasing" a robber on the number 9 bus in front.


Johnnytheboy wrote:
Or on PT.

I used to work for a interior landscaping (i.e. office plants) firm that experimented with sending staff in to central London on the tube.

It was an unmitigated disaster:


I had to go to colledge for 4 days recently, thought I'd do what "they" would like me to.

Day 1: 1hr15m bus journey. cost: £8 both ways

Day 2,3,4: 15 min van drive. cost (daily): £10 parking, £1 or so in fuel.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 22:10 
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Quote:
The trade-off for drivers would be the abolition of road tax and fuel duty, and more spending on the road network



Yeh, right, I can just see this happening....NOT!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 23:46 
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There is an easy way to charge on use that is entirely fair and relates to the car you choose and the way you drive. Fuel tax. Get rid of road tax and all the other taxes on ownership. The make sure the cost of fuel reflects the actual cost of use of the car. Everyone in the country depends on the road network so everyone should pay for it via general taxation so all road maintenance and road building should come out of the public purse. The actual car use which as we know is just a tax raising measure should come out of fuel. Public transport should pay the same fuel taxes, ditto aircraft then the playing field is level if the infrastructure comes out of taxes but the use charges are paid by the user. Don't need any of this complicated road pricing crap at all.

Create a larger price differential between fossil and bio fuels and make bio fuels and bio fuel conversions easy and cheap to do. Then you can phase out fossil fuel as LRP has been phased out. Car owners pay a fortune in tax through VAT on car related goods, servicing and a host of other things. Car use generates a hell of a lot of wealth and these chumps want people to be able to do less in a day! Talk about inefficient use of resources.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 07:04 
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Public transport should pay the same fuel taxes, ditto aircraft then the playing field is level if the infrastructure comes out of taxes but the use charges are paid by the use


In this model railway infrastructure (track building and maintainance, building and manning stations, signalling), air transport infrastructure (airports, terminals, ATC) and canal infrastructure would also be paid for out of the public purse. Would you be happy with that?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 07:54 
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Biofuels have turned out to be a huge disaster.
Just look at the ethanol case.
You cannot grow food for fuel without losing the food part...and pushing prices up of food.
Electric cars are not the answer either, their use still has the congestion problem and only displaces the pollution problem.
Bedfords solution to traffic problems is probably the way most towns will go.....as soon as the various bypasses are built the town centre is being closed to through traffic and the various rat runs are being 20 limited.
Plus, the large expansion of 20 limits continues.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 09:46 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
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Public transport should pay the same fuel taxes, ditto aircraft then the playing field is level if the infrastructure comes out of taxes but the use charges are paid by the use


In this model railway infrastructure (track building and maintainance, building and manning stations, signalling), air transport infrastructure (airports, terminals, ATC) and canal infrastructure would also be paid for out of the public purse. Would you be happy with that?


The other way of working it would be proportional subsidy according to passenger miles. Roads would get more than 90% of the budget which would leave railways screwed.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 09:48 
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jomukuk wrote:
Biofuels have turned out to be a huge disaster.
Just look at the ethanol case.
You cannot grow food for fuel without losing the food part...and pushing prices up of food.
Electric cars are not the answer either, their use still has the congestion problem and only displaces the pollution problem.
Bedfords solution to traffic problems is probably the way most towns will go.....as soon as the various bypasses are built the town centre is being closed to through traffic and the various rat runs are being 20 limited.
Plus, the large expansion of 20 limits continues.


Never said bio fuels had to be made from crops! There is plenty of waste material including sewage that could be used as fuel which is otherwise not used for anything. How much waste vegetable oil is produced by the food industry each year? How many billion miles would it cover? There's just no joined up thinking.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:23 
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teabelly wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
Quote:
Public transport should pay the same fuel taxes, ditto aircraft then the playing field is level if the infrastructure comes out of taxes but the use charges are paid by the use


In this model railway infrastructure (track building and maintainance, building and manning stations, signalling), air transport infrastructure (airports, terminals, ATC) and canal infrastructure would also be paid for out of the public purse. Would you be happy with that?


The other way of working it would be proportional subsidy according to passenger miles. Roads would get more than 90% of the budget which would leave railways screwed.


That is a chicken and egg argument. If you had applied it in 1890 we wouldn't have any road now. But would you care to answer my original question?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:55 
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I'd be happy to pay, same as I pay for some nhs services I don't use. Roads I don't actually drive on, railways I don't currently use as I realise they benefit everyone. Others may not feel the same. Canals are part of heritage and should be preserved anyway. Lots of taxation goes towards things that one person may not use themselves but which benefit a large group of others in some way or other. No model of payment is perfect.


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