Safe Speed Forums

Well, I suppose they can always write a book or two after they leave the forces. Then there's the speech circuit, and the television pundit routine.
Maybe they can go into politics as well.
As for a bloodless military coup....right.
The police are neither above the law, nor are they the law. WE are the law.
All the way from the office expense fiddle, to the 33 in a 30 limit, to the failing to declare earnings, to the biz doing cash jobs to avoid tax and vat.
Get the picture ?
A nation of short-changers and fiddlers.
Ya get wot ya deserve.
And if the police do strike ?
Well, the speed cameras will still be working, those not destroyed. They'll be replaced, at our expense. The shops may be looted, at our expense through higher insurance premiums. The wife may well be shocked when the burglars wander through and strip the place, if she is still alive afterwards. Would the army be better ?
No, they were not a lot of good when the fire strike happened and they'll be not a lot of good if the police strike.
Oh, ands if the refineries are blockaded again, the police will be told to arrest those doing it....along with seizure and sale of articles used in breach of law. I think the proceeds of crime act may well be appropriate.

It is worth noting that this was Paul's last ever post on these forums

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Maybe it should be made a sticky without my post.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

I've held my peace on this one so far, because I fear I could easily erupt into a full scale rant. However.....here goes:

Coming from an old mining village which is now quite "up market", I have worked in the mines and other industries since. I remember the days when the miners (I had left by then and never knew what a strike was) fought to defend their jobs, they went on strike not for money, but to save their jobs and communities.

They were out for over 12 months in which the Thatcher Gov. denied them money for food and sustenance, and used ALL the weapons of state and rabid media tycoons to full effect. They were reduced to handouts from well wishers of which I was proud to have been one in my small way.

I saw during this time, fleets of dark blue coaches with riot netting on the windows FULL of Policemen traveling North on 2 occasions, once on the M1 and once on the M5. ALL on overtime.................

Political pawns in a political game to defeat the working middle class who had been shafted, lied to, and had their agreements torn up in front of their eyes and faced destitution. (ring any bells Mr Policeman)

YES, MR Policeman............WE know what it's like when the agreements you made with your employer are torn up. I've suffered it in other industries too. Have you talked to the Firemen about this BTW?

I have long memory and I'm afraid that I have NO sympathy. The Miners years ago were faced with Policemen waving their fat pay cheques at them (from the overtime) while they starved. This is of course before they charged the miners on horseback killing one or two and beating them over the head with batons after which the miners charged back....

Yet the "un biased BBC" reversed the film on the news giving the impression that the miners had charged first! Sounds like something out of Soviet Russia doesn't it? .............only, it was a Tory wot dun it!....

Sorry, Mr Policeman Sir.............Join the ruddy REAL world.................

"Get back to work and stop moaning you idle bastards! Sack the lot I say!"......Now I wonder what kind of person normally says that?........

For me I'll just say: You should be on "perfomance pay" in which case you'd be heading for a cut!

EDIT:

SORRY, SORRY!.......I got a bit out of hand there didn't I?...






I said the word|: "Ruddy"

Sorry..............

Yep, it was. And I replied in a way that I'm sure he would have expected. I did think of deleting my reply as it seems a bit confrontational, but I'm sure Paul would have dissaproved of such a withdrawl.
What do you think?

It is.

It’s one of the first things I wanted to know – Paul’s final words on this forum.

And, in a way, his post was perfectly apt. It shows his thinking and concerns went way beyond the road safety campaign and his final plea for help demonstrates the immense humility of the man.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

You don't half talk some bollocks. WE are not the law - Govt invent/create laws and the police are expected to enforce them, which quite often they don't or can't.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

The actual final final post that he made was one that I found when I wen to him. it was a finished post I think as it was the top most window on the screen. It was one to PH but I cannot find it - perhaps I might now .. but if anyone does let me know where it is please.
As I recall, in those horrific, tragic moments, it started with

Wow ...

I sent it as I knew he meant it to go and it only seemed right and proper.
Somehow his post here to me seems right as it is in it's place, and a sticky would take it out of place, wouldn't it?
However we could maybe keep a copy in the Remember Paul forum.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Hi

As far as a soldier is concerned, you do NOT get a choice of where you serve or not serve.

A soldier MUST believe that he is fighting for his country and that the country is ALWAYS right, morally and ethically.

You CAN refuse to obey a direct order under certain circumstances, but the usual result is a Court Martial and 2 years in Colchester Military Prison (not a nice place)

When I was a soldier (long ago) , I did things that would make the average person puke....and thats putting it as mildly as I can.

I have been shot several times (it hurts a LOT by the way)

I obviously shot back with the obvious consequences....

But while this was all going on, I did not think geo-politically, I just thought about the best way to do what I was doing so myself and my fellow soldiers survived....

You don't even think long term, just surviving the next few minutes or hours is enough.

Soldiers do not make moral decisions generally, they make survival ones.

So if you are blaming anyone for entry into an illegitimate war, you MUST blame the politicians, NOT the soldiers I am afraid.

Just my 2ps worth

All the best Brett

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PORSCHE 928 S2 AUTO V8 4.7 LTR 1986 IRIS METALLIC BLUE WITH X-PIPES ,RMB ,PROMAX CHIPS, KICKDOWN SWITCH, K&N, WIZARDS OF NOS - PRO RACE NITROUS KIT 1000 HP.
EX - PCGB UK 928 FORUM MODERATOR - Email managingdirector@pchealthcare.co.uk

Totally agree with you. To me soldiers are just political pawns, to be used and abused when the need arises, and have no say in the matter. Only for some of our Governments' , politicians and elite, we would'nt need wars, or endless unnecessary killing.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Paul worried about the moral rights of individuals to go into a war that they might think is wrong. He wanted to unravel the dilemma of the soldier's moral beliefs and rights, when they might disagree, and if they should not be allowed to abstain. That type of thing. he used 'unthinking' very carefully here.
He absolutely blamed the Government. He was concentrating on those that might loose their lives, and their moral rights. he knew it was a very sensitive and involved issue.
He loved puzzles and challenges, and the more involved and intricate it got the better.
He took things to a level that left most people behind. He rapidly learnt and often overtook 'experts' with years of experience in just months. He was a remarkable man the like of which the world may never see again. (:) Just as well I am a woman then hey ! )

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

its actually a tricky question. whether you are in the police, armed forces or local job centre, you are not allowed to express an opinion and are therefore to follow orders without question but you know that when you sign on the dotted line. on the other hand, when those orders go beyond the point where they are questionable to the extent where you know damn well you are doing the wrong thing, what do you do? you are stuck between doing what is right and doing what you are told. unfortunately, they are well aware of the possibility of that dilemma and are quick to make that decision for you and the result is never non involving. you go to war or you go to jail/get sacked. to a certain extent i can understand it but when those giving the orders cross the line into unreasonable yet lawful orders, you are committed to doing what you are told regardless of what you feel is right or wrong. you signed your moral and political opinion away at the start

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

Hi

I agree in part.

As a soldier for instance, you cannot make any political decisions , all you can do is make small moral decisions.

A couple of times as an example, I told Officers where to go....lol but not quite as politely as that

Normally as a soldier , that would get you Court Marshalled, but in my case, it was slightly different as I was a very experienced soldier and they were young, fresh out of Sandhurst kids... who "thought" they knew best as it was what Sandhurst had taught them.

But I had a moral objection...lol... to being killed or injured because of their stupidity, and luckily for me, in the Regiment I was in, the soldier with the most experience ran things normally.

The bit I didn't like, was the brainwashing that places like Sandhurst put into young officers....

It was the "I am an Officer of the British Army and I am ALWAYS right in ALL my decisions! attitude

If they were ever to make good officers, they had to unlearn that, some did and some never did....

The ones who didn't usually didn't last long....

But those officers were actually worse morally than the lower ranks, as we at least knew what we were doing sometimes was "iffy" to say the least....those officers did not care as they were "always" right....

A bit like politicians lol

All the best Brett

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PORSCHE 928 S2 AUTO V8 4.7 LTR 1986 IRIS METALLIC BLUE WITH X-PIPES ,RMB ,PROMAX CHIPS, KICKDOWN SWITCH, K&N, WIZARDS OF NOS - PRO RACE NITROUS KIT 1000 HP.
EX - PCGB UK 928 FORUM MODERATOR - Email managingdirector@pchealthcare.co.uk

As I was born after the war I wouldn't know what it was like and have only what I read on the internet and from programs like the world at war. I wouldn't know what was propaganda and what was real the same for our children today. One question that has always been on my mind for a long time is, how would a soldier react if he was required to turn on his own people?

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Hi

Interesting question that...

In the case of major unrest.....such as Riot control, then yes the average soldier would obey orders and do it...

In the case of actually shooting at English people on the streets....

Two comments I think...

1, I do not think that the Politicians would be silly enough to ask as that would make them fair game as well....either for an actual bullet or more importantly to them ...it would finish them politically...

You must remember that a soldier is NOT a policeman.... we were trained to KILL...no warnings, no please put down that placard or petrol bomb, just to shoot to kill....

So IF you could put soldiers on the streets, you WOULD have a LOT of dead bodies.....and they wouldn't be soldiers, just civilians...

2, I seriously doubt that many soldiers would obey an order to fire on British civilians....although they might just shoot the person trying to order them to do so

All the best Brett

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PORSCHE 928 S2 AUTO V8 4.7 LTR 1986 IRIS METALLIC BLUE WITH X-PIPES ,RMB ,PROMAX CHIPS, KICKDOWN SWITCH, K&N, WIZARDS OF NOS - PRO RACE NITROUS KIT 1000 HP.
EX - PCGB UK 928 FORUM MODERATOR - Email managingdirector@pchealthcare.co.uk

I have to admit that I don’t so much support our troops as much as I pity them, for being used in the likes of Iraq or Afghanistan. Do the people of the UK really know what they are fighting for? I came across this article The War on Freedom It makes some interesting reading.(I recommend reading it before passing comments) You might have to register but it dosn't take much.

I also don’t believe that our troops are being supported and cared for the way they should be by our Governments’. You hear how they are being given inferior equipment, not being given the proper care in hospitals, not being looked after when they have been made disabled from fighting.

In the town where I lived we had a remembrance cenotaph, which was placed in the middle of a piece of grassed land with flower beds and situated between our Civic hall and Library. The council decided they wanted to pave the whole area and moved the cenotaph out of the way in a corner, why? It should have stayed where it was as a reminder of what the two world wars where about, to remind our children to ask the question of what it was there for. It’s as though our Governments’ don’t want these people to be remembered and don’t see them as fighting force, but as disposable Humans, and no longer care if they get injured or killed.

Maybe our Governments' are happy that our troops are out of the country, especially as we now have our new breed of police to do the killing for them.

I am only expressing my feelings and would be very grateful to everyone if we could keep this thread in the context of discussion.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Indeed. Taken some minutes to read and re-read the thread.

I think police.. fire crews. army . teachers ,, MEDICS are morally and ethically bound not to go on strike.

As for soldiers being ordered to fire on civilians .. history tells us they will obey orders under an extreme dictatorship.

Current policing practices .. as highlighted in way too many press articles from Over Kellett to G20 .. show some officers perhaps suffer from red mist.. arrogant complacency and the odd one comes across in video evidence as downright ugly to encounter.

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i have always said that the best officers are the ones who went through the ranks and that i use that philosophy with politicians too which is exactly what i intend to be. although i am very early in my political career, the job i want is minister for transport because that is where my passion and experience would be a natural progression to. the term 'career politician' is used for those who went from university to politics so they have never been on the front line. how can they be entrusted with making decisions based on theory rather than experience? that applies to all ministerial appointments which effectively means that most people dont really understand why they are doing their jobs when they are paid from the treasury. ill informed decisions are acted upon by those on the front line when most of the time, it is those people who would be in a better position to make the decisions in the first place

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

Totally agree with you Scanny, and good luck in your persuit for Minister for Transport.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Folks, I work in one of these industries were many people would say that "I" should not have the right to strike.....Well I agree! I shouldn't, because the consequences of that action are unthinkable. Therefore, if I agree agree to that restriction in my employment, shouldn't I in turn not be protected by some special arrangement or BINDING agreement? Shouldn't there be in place an agreement about my pay and conditions?

Most workers like us cover ALL BANK Hols day and night etc and you don't even notice....... but you would if we went on strike!

We provide a service......(like the Police) 365 days a year......24 hrs a day.

But we don't run Banks....from 9 till 5 and get a £1million bonus.

I'm not badly paid as it goes, but I'm not in that class.

But in MY case......you WOULD miss us!

But would you really miss the Police if they went on strike? I wouldn't. I can't get one when they're working normally! They are only there to protect the state anyway....