Safe Speed Forums

They will 'just tell you and correctly that different altitudes and areas require a different gritting pattern. They grit not to a defined schedule but to the weather and this IS hw it should be. They don't always get it right, but they try to and apart from ensuring that the local Council person / people are fully aware of the right times to grit and take good advice there is little additional input (for the time being to advance this system).
Heaven forbid that we have the EU Highway Code ! I am for making things more simple ! NOT more complicated there are now too many rules an regs !

if you want to reach businesses try The Association of Small Businesses and the Rotary Club etc ....


See now if she really had 'grip' that she was fighting then I think she'd whisked over the ice/ water (etc) briefly, lost it and then was dealing with a car spinning on tarmac? Were their tyre marks on the road that the Police were looking at and marking BAC (by any chance) ?
IF this is the case, then skid pan training would have likely helped her here. It is heartbreaking to think that a simple course might be the difference between OK and not OK. (? Thumbs damaged?) Tyre pressures ?
One other point here too, IF she was 'fighting the steering' then this means that she was trying to react to a skid. This implies that it was likely that (with enough knowledge) a skid process of events has occurred, which implies that if appropriate input is identified and timed correctly then prevention might be possible, or correction to improve matters, also possible (or the last resort, brake (pump or stand on) and set the steering for best results if grip returns and brace !). A school of thought to release the steering, plus a brief pull on the handbrake enabling the car to settle itself is another .....
Information for road users is obviously good for all driving, weathers and conditions, e.g. what about when it is wet after long dry spells or as already mentioned diesel - it is extremely slippery then too. I have had diesel skids, - several on one drive in particular (just skidded, dealt with it and carried on - 5 all told and one right on the apex of a bend ! I was going slow and caught it pretty fast - thankfully. I called the Police as one should, who were already on their way to erect signs !
At the moment we have many youngsters that need guidance, but with a only a few places to get this from, why doesn't the Government / Council care - likely because it cannot be logged, awarded as a success and targeted for additional money. To enforce properly we also need the Police to be better trained too now. (Well the younger one's!)

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Ach.. but it more like reading RoadCraft with photos of everything - including all stage of breathalyser procedure too, short explanation of how to read road map on on page. This book ist same size/bulk as RoadCraft und full of useful-ish stuff You bring out the "Euro-cretin" in me

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

I was more thinking about the enforcement of headlights in tunnels and I dare say there is more. Do send me copies if you have them .... would love to see them - please.
What I am concerned about it that they select all the worst policies that will enable more enforcement and fines, rather than concentrating on the good concepts, that can help improve a driver ; their speed obsession has not helped our roads or drivers - just made things dramatically dumbed down, making drivers far less able to cope, so that they can then justify this driver inability, to then justify further policies and fines.
In other words they can start to ensure less traffic, too as more are taken off the road or feel it is not 'worth it', as their EU target which was set many yrs ago, of if I recall, about 20% less traffic by 2010. So they need less traffic, but a lot more revenue so they need more reasons to fine. This is a dangerous road to go down and absolutely nothing to do with road safety, just targets at any cost.
At least this is what I think is happening behind the scenes ...

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

My checks of my Council's Winter Service Plan's scheduling of salting versus the weather conditions at the time of the smash shows that they probably didn't follow their own Procedures. I'm not saying that they don't try to do their best. Just that I feel that it is important that the driving public needs to challenge a compliance, and check that the basic methodologies used for roadsurface-condition prediction are dependable. In the case of the ex copper who I mentioned, senior meteoroligists also confirmed that the weather-sensors used to determine local salting-frequencies COULD NOT HAVE GIVEN AN ACCURATE PREDICTION. His Wife suffered injury in a black-ice smash at far lower speeds than my Daughter was travelling. His researches have revealed an authoritative confirmation that variation in the asphalt type at the scene was also a major contributory. Each time he and I proceed, we discover more 'basic' stuff' which unsettles us and encourages us to continue. [/quote]



I really must try harder to quote what others in this debate have brought as useful info. I believe that it was Wildy who pointed out the Euro advice about blackice, whereas our Highway Code doesn't (does it?)[/quote]


Thanks. I've already got a good response, in March I think, from the 2 Counties Business League, mentioned earlier, and hope to bring your recommendation to good use. What about Safe Speed helping with a lobby?[/quote]


Can't be absolutely sure, and as it was my car I'm a bit ashamed. Fairly confident, though, that my weekly check will have meant correct pressures. Plus, it's my routine to check and adjust pressures pre a long journey, when load is generally higher [/quote]
Whether reliable as confirmation, the police-check of car conditionrevealed nothing of comment.


Could you tell me more about this, please safespeedv2?

Please see the suggestions made in my Thread in the Brainstorming Forum.[/quote]

Aber doch meine Liebste! I do not have problem over using the dippies in the tunnels back home. These tunnels are very long - they cut through the mountains to make it quicker motorway through route than over the Pass. I admit I prefer the Pass as it more interesting if you understand why I enlist help of Messrs Smiley Und Smiley All the More here....

Also Swiss have mined them in case of "invasion" Und Nay .. do not ask as no one back home has foggiest or blurriest idea who would want to "invade us" unless cuckoos addicted to chocolate ! I am in tongue in cheek mode!




They are written in French/German/Italian/Dutch/Spanish - but I think you understand from the pictures. I will send spare copy as I bought a few copy for family at large when over there at the time und my cousins Marianna und Jessika had likewise idea . as did my brother Knut. We handed some spares to pals planning to holiday over there. I do not think these to be "law is law babbles" - but more where UK HC meet DSA Driving Standard book. These foreign books also have theory test questions with the answers in a neat "book mark" aide-memoire thing. I'd advise anyone planning trip abroad to acquire copy. Even if not "au fait" with lingo - the photos/SMILEY GUYS/ und very funny cartoons are educational und you would get basic gist with GCSE/or lingo to Year 9 knowledge per the teachers in this family I think most English folk would be surprised at how much they might understand. I think I should see if I can scan or photocopy und upload, Sadly these books are not on internet as UK Highway Code ist for free viewing.






I think this ist "speed-hype= EASY CASH thing" .. but now chicken come home to roost as they now see what motor industry mean to a viable und growing economy.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Just after the Rhyl tragedy - Ted (Mad Moggie Doc) posted up a story from Bolton-Chorley border. Each council blame the other. Cyclists - 30 or so - crashed into each other on black ice. Each council claimed "grit". Cyclists state their experience und injuries contradict. As far as we are aware as no updates to date - case still to hit the court,.

We use Manchester/Bolton press as sources of "interesting scoops to comment on" above Lancs as these reflect typical (outside London/crowded Home Counties) big suburbian inner city more so than Preston/Penrith/Carlisle.




But we know that the black ice sheen will set in as thaw meet colder air at the aforementioned known "cold spots" - but can appear elsewhere. In-law "Jan-Jan-jazzyjamtheblues" live on a very "des res road ". Her house ist in one such "cold spot" as North facing at the front where the road ist. Add tall trees und a few shadows - it get nasty there. But she still say like me.. you see the cold .. you see white frost . you know there may be the black ice out there.. und you drive "on the prowly alert" as we call it in/across this family und PALS!.









I think our Code ist one comprehensive book. I think fact that we overtake UK on many issues show we teach better per the stats.




Firms like Kwik Fit/Subway even are franchised.. you may find these helpful? We know the family who were part of the MART team used on that basis...


Whether reliable as confirmation, the police-check of car conditionrevealed nothing of comment. [/quote]

OK ./. her pressures/tread OK.


OFF TOPIC UND PERSONAL FRIENDLY CHATTY-CHAT FROM ME TO SAMUNDBEN

By the way . many thank for calling me "Wildy" as this name I known by in person. I am usually in bother (from family und pals) if called Wildcat und in biggest bother if called by family und friends as Veronika (full name which ist mouthful anyway.) The other name my pals/work colleague call me by is "Vr-rrr-eNnnnnn-chen" which ist Swiss diminutive of Veronika. und it suit me more per my pals/family - as it sound like a right sexy engine if you say it right

OFFTPOIC MODEOFF!

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Und samundben .. we not contradict you at all. We put points to make you consider und think over. We try to help und not at all undermine you in any way whatsoever. I hear what you say,. I know what you und yours feel. und I understand . but like you - we need to address the unpallatable und face it if we have any hope to improve or educate????

I admit that if hitting standing traffic these day - I look for a "get out clause" at all time.

I would say that such sheerly awful experience stamp with indelible clarity of memory - because of the sheer momentum of urgency und the knowledge that it may be your last second of life? You have to feel this! I did - und samundben's daughter probably did as a normal human being. I am being fair to the young lady. I want her not to feel blame or guilt but to get on with her life...but if her story help others - then she achieve much. Und perhaps this what samundben look for? Und I understand him fully.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

What are their procedures ?

But this is the very nature of Black Ice. It is neigh impossible to improve on what is in experienced guesstimates. How can we demand that they improve on this. You need proper research to identify where ALL the improvements might be made then after further Council decisions as to what is likely to be value for money. Seeing as how the next Council sessions are likely to have less money as the Gov sucks up even more they will be even more hard pressed to carry out their current obligations never mind new ones. Sorry.
It is interesting about the rubber in the tarmac - I assume that I the rubber crumb (old crumbled up tyres) great idea ... but I bet that wears out in rapid quick time ! I wonder if there is a silicone or polyurethane mix that might have some additional grip but lower freezing temperatures ?

Not the slightest bit surprised, but there is much research and study to go before any sensible conclusions can be assigned, and then fought for.


Well I did give you the references. First thing about research ensure that you have the truth and facts always on your side. It does mention Black ice and you will be dismissed if you fail to recognise that it try's to warn drivers of the dangers. (I am not trying to be mean here, but you cannot dismiss the words that it states.) The whole highway code is online and there maybe additional references .... what have you dug up in there ?

Well 'lobbying' is the task of taking this to Government directly. You cannot do that until you have all your research and facts thoroughly sorted out, and clearly presented. At the moment you are still in phase one : Is there a problem that needs to be solved & find all facts .... Fully identify the problem/s, only then can you move onto - present the facts and prove the case - then how to solve the problem, and what solutions exist and who might best execute those solutions and most importantly what benefit is factually proven to be plausible.



It IS OK to not know, most haven't a clue and have to check their manual or read it off the sticker that often lives on the 'B' pillar or under the bonnet ! It is not good not to know, but we all have to learn and understand that these things are important. I have extreme interest in driving, but we are not all perfect, and have all had to learn at some point. I can tell you that mine vary bet. 30 and 35, to 32 and 38 depending on load, journey and conditions. At the moment they are 30 and 36 ... general driving ... (front and rear tyres ). Your car can behave differently if one or more tyres are not at their optimum pressure.


Could you tell me more about this, please safespeedv2?[/quote]
I do not have proof of this, but I was referring to the fact that unless an Authority can probably prove a target and show 'achievement' they will likely not receive funding ... IMHO only. The right FOI might get a result.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Vreeeenchen
First, thank you again for the friendly and helpful response


This is a very good point, and is addressed also in my Council's Winter Service Plan Saltting Procedure. In it, they undertake to inspect and spot-salt any known, local 'cold-spots'. If I am correct about them not following their own salting-procedures for the whole road, then I now must check that they spot-salted the section of road where the crash happened......it is very different to the rest of the road. However, more significantly, it is a section which is part of a 7 mile stretch which has seen over 100 collisions in 6 years, including 3 fatalities.

My Police Safety Officer is now compiling for me mapped locations of those collisions, showing in particular which of the collisions was due to slippery road-conditions. The statistics came from Council files, the mappings from a special effort made by police. My point is that, in isolation, an annual review of one County's slippery road collisions may not have revealed anything as significant as, say, collisions involving young, speeding motorists. Therefore, the regular meetings between my Police Safety Officer & Council's Road Safety Team may not have seen slippery road collisions as worthy of review and action.[/quote]

Yes, I REALLY DO value all comments made in this debate, and sorry if my responses seem to challenge a contradiction......it's my way of written communication;it's not good. I'm just a stubborn old b*****d really [/quote]




Oooooh yes. I've known that feeling twice in my driving life. Once when coming over a rise on the Northbound A1 @ 60 mph. Seeing the truck, on the other side of the rise, 100 metres away slowly crossing my path to get to the Southbound dual carriageway.....he'd taken the wrong exit on the sliproad! I had 6 weeks recovering from that one. Then, in another, being sideswiped on the M1 by an artic lorry which undertook my car at higher speed and tried to enter my lane. It was a Danish truck, lefthand drive and driver couldn't see my car from where he was sitting..................we ended trapped in a ditch after spinning several times in and out of the 3 lanes of the motorway.[/quote]



Exactly that, Vrenchen, her story and others like it must be used, if it's possible, to try to prevent accidents.
Daughter has yet to show any guilt or other of the feelings that you kindly mention....... but if/ when it happens your advice will be invaluable, cos we're prepared thanks to you and others here. She is very strong, and today leaves hospital after 5 months to go home permanently [/quote]

Well we can help you go through those as well at some point when you are ready. (In another forum & thread of course.)


I can appreciate the emotional sentiment here BUT you have to be exceptionally careful that NO road safety policy is driven by emotional demands, but by fact and truth. You might feel better but it is useless if that misguided intention to do better becomes some new policy that actually later proves to kill, maim or injure others. Tread very carefully on this one. I understand your need to 'do something' never assume anything and let the facts and information gained (and question all that too), speak for themselves.
Well that is very good news. Is it hoped that she will make a full recovery ?

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Here I go again,sorry (not a contradiction, more to do with synergy).........not sure that I can agree with that. But need to share what you mean by guesstimates.[/quote]


Why sorry, safespeedv2? It's so important to my efforts that I learn from your experience. I'm not intending a demand. Most of the research done by road-sensor manufacturers has esproven that >90% accuracy is gained in predicting ice formation on road-pavement from statistical 'Nowcasting'. This utilisises Met Office weather forecasting combined with sensor readouts. The Nowcasts are available to decision-making highways' engineers. That research is some years old and was undertaken to get a win-win for local-government..........uprated predictions mean related increased cost-effectiveness of salting. I'd be pleased if with just finding that my Council is operating it's procedures effectively, & that they at least know of Nowcasting. Anything more than that to me will be a bonus [/quote]


I missed the rubber crumb discussion. Is it in the Brainstorming forum?[/quote]


Not looked, yet. Been prepping my Daughter's relocation to wheelchair-friendly........lots of total refurb on an old bungalow. Praps I've taken on too much.[/quote]


Ahhh, thanks for that

Important Thank you. Am trying to 'ratify' any info that I've received, As seen in some of my pedantic responses. [/quote]


For all in her Family, we won't give up hope, and we are told that MNRA is doing excellent nerve-repair research (something called 'nerve-shunting'?). However, the Neurosurgeon who treated her has said that she won't walk again. The backbone broke and severed the spinal-cord=feeling and control from breastbone up.[/quote]

[/quote]


Hiya Samandben


Nothing wrong with posting an alternative as it furthers debate and fixes things in mind.




[/quote]


I think we do recall the really awesome or traumatic experiences of life vividly. I wonder if we do so because of our instinct for survival?



I think that's why Vrenchen has been open and frank at all times about what did happen. Both me and Ted as family went through it from the other side as "concerned relative" in my case and "devoted husband" in his case. I commented back in April 2004 when I introduced myself formerly on this board (after private chats with the late Paul) that I had been the "copper from hell" in the immediate aftermath,. More Pc Savage than "Pc in right Gear"

Yes - I think the three of us are trying to encourage all out there who happen to read our posts on here and other fora of equally of seriouslly minded merit to be aware of "self's health" and judge oneself properly. I know there are demands to be "stoic" - but there are times as the Mad Doc always says when you really do have to "listen to your body" and chill out/snooze whatever.


Likewise we have to make folk out there be alert to all adverse weather condtions.. listen to forecasts . read the warning signs and, just as importanly, have some idea as to what to do if you do hit the black ice, the torrential downpour/diesel spill or the low sun etc.


[/quote]


Sam .. it will happen some time. It will sink in and you have to be prepared for it .. to ease her through it. Strong types? I think when they crack they crack. I've seen it with Vrenchen in the 1990-1996 recovery stages.
I am delighted to learn she's leaving hospital.

Samandben - I hope you do not take in the wrong way,, but you say she has not shown any guilt of other feelings? I think I am perhaps being kinder minded to your daughter than you are here.


samandben!

Your daughter has been through a very traumatic experience which required her to concentrate on her own recovery. Hell man.. I've seen well built men cry and be beside themselves when faced with the consequences of what they thought a "safe" manoeuvre in the past. I like to think I dealt with them objectively but still with that warmth of humanity which we all need in moment of severe stress. But then we all need that reassurance from fellow human beings.

But samandben . BE there for your girl. Support and reassure at the first sign of any crack-up. When she's ready and only when she's ready -discuss this incident with her carefully and gently. Mate - she needs this .. especially if deep down in soul she feels so guilty in mind.

I am so sorry to read your other posts about your daughter's outlook. Do you need links as to the useful help available to you out there? See social services and GP to get the right forms to set the ball rolling. Get DLA/Mobility allowance . Check it all out samandben.

Give your daughter a virtual hug from me and to worry only about her recovery for next month amd then spend time on the rest.


off topic personal moment to praise Wildy

She started to drive again aroound 1996 after a a long struggle back. We saw this remarkable cousin of mine fight back from internal injuries .. recover full use of her arm after major surgery to it .. learn to walk again .. and in late 96/early 97 - she felt ready to drive again. She asked me to guide her. I did. Took her on track to get her regain feels and confidence. Then out on the road with me and some colleagues. We trained her right up to our standards Hey .. I wanted her to be safer and even abler!

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

What is the name of your Code, please?

What is the MART team, please?

[quote="In Gear].....I wonder if we do so because of our instinct for survival? [quote]
An amygdalic/ primeval response, I believe[quote]
[quote="In Gear]Sam .. it will happen some time. It will sink in and you have to be prepared for it .. to ease her through it. Strong types? I think when they crack they crack. I am delighted to learn she's leaving hospital. [quote]
Many thanks for your delight. What things do we need to watch for ? [quote]
[quote="In Gear] Samandben - I hope you do not take in the wrong way,, but you say she has not shown any guilt of other feelings? I think I am perhaps being kinder minded to your daughter than you are here. [quote]
Please ....speak freely. Daughter has shown despair, resignation, 'why me', anger(controlled). I've shared my similar feelings with her, openly. She's had counselling in hospital, but the counsellor said that she was dealing with thinga "as expected"[quote]
[quote="In Gear] But then we all need that reassurance from fellow human beings.[quote]
Locals have helped, but circumspectly/ with respect. My Brother and his family have been excellent. Our GP too. You Guys are also a source of pragmatism, which has helped us.[quote]
[quote="In Gear] But samandben . BE there for your girl. Support and reassure at the first sign of any crack-up. When she's ready and only when she's ready -discuss this incident with her carefully and gently. Mate - she needs this .. especially if deep down in soul she feels so guilty in mind. [quote]
We're waiting and watching. Have been since day 1 [quote]
[quote="In Gear] Do you need links as to the useful help available to you out there? [quote]
Yes please. [quote]
[quote="In Gear]See social services and GP to get the right forms to set the ball rolling. Get DLA/Mobility allowance . [quote]
All in place, thanks [quote]

We cannot enbed multi-quote on here,. I think it good discipline to me.


You ask name of our Highway Code

Le Code de la route/ Strassenverkehrsordnung.


http://www.code-route-facile.com/


http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/inde ... 71198.html


to back my post. I can back everything I have ever posted to any forum.



You can buy from tourist board/driving schools und on-line too,.





[/quote]


It was Manchester Against Road Toll. When sisters-in-law were getting shops to put posters in window - they found national chains had protocol procedure but franchises were locally und locally autonomously managed. TriplestDaveS tell me right word on phone ... "independently managed?" I can drift off topic to praise Triplest as he so NICE und so understandingly kind. His kindness mean much to me. Sorry .. I drift off topic but hopefully in nicest way?

Back to MART ./. my in-laws quicky learned to approach small shop owners with an engaging SMILE (und both my in-laws have Ted's disarming smile which iof you think of "Paul Nicholas' Vincent" in "Just Good Friends" .. you may understand here the need for the SMILE. You win if you smile. JA? )

Then you come prepared with the sticky tape/bluetack und stick the poster on the windows immediately. It take time .. but it work all the same .. apparently.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Indeed - the term I was looking for.







Despair and resignation are part of the "guilt thing" too. Anger at oneself can follow ..then blaming oneself for being angry.. followed by taking it out on others and then immediately regretting it... This can apply to other hurts in life too - such as bereavement . sudden bereavement .. puuting a elferly but much loved relative in a home and feeling "guilty about abandoning said relative (my own wife over her parents)..


I am trying to help yo put all into perspective if and when such occur. We all cope differently






Glad to hear this. I really do wish you and yoru daughter all the very best for the future. You come across as a caring father but not completely exonerating your daughter from all blame - which takes courage to do so. I think she was very unlucky .. and that any smattering of acquired knowledge would have helped diffuse but not necessarily have prevented as one never can be 100% sure in treacherously icy conditions - not me. nor Ted nor Vrenchen nor anyone else no matter what the level of training sometimes. Sure - it helps diffuse or mitigate some of the danger .. but not necessarily all of it. Please give your daughter this lifeline when she starts raging at herself as she will.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

[quote="In Gear"]putting a elderly but much loved relative in a home and feeling "guilty about abandoning said relative.[quote]
Another result of the same smash, sorry to say. Mother-i-Law was injured and it's sped the onset of Alzheimers