Safe Speed Forums

Virgin has a note on this HERE
or : http://www.virginmedia.com/motoring/gal ... php?ssid=5
and state :
"With almost 100 deaths in the last 10 years, a 15-mile stretch of the A682 is considered one of the most dangerous roads in the UK. The narrow road is located in Lancashire between junction 13 of the M65 and Long Preston and was judged our most dangerous stretch of highway by the European Road Assessment Programme – not an accolade to be proud of."

The article discuss the most dangerous roads around the World.
I wonder what actually makes it so dangerous - apart from in their supplied image showing the most obvious mistake in driving FAR TOO close together & in such appalling conditions !
I dare say, couple that with inattention, and I am sure it is a recipe for disaster !
But why this bit - WHY is it SO dangerous ? Is there an engineering solution that may hep it ? What type of accidents occur here ?

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I live near the A682 and don't particularly find it to be a dangerous road as such, its high fatality rate is due to the following factors.

1. Said road is part of an unofficial bikers time trial from Nelson to Kirkby Lonsdale ( and back ) so many biker's ride like lunatics to start even though they don't really know the road. However that is not to say that experienced locals don't get caught out, one local rider claimed he hit a stone going into one of the 30 Mph bend's but as the gormless plod couldn't find it they blamed the fatality ( a couple of days afterwards ) on speed. There would appear to be other cases of locals being caught out ( not limited to A682 ) where it would appear that the only possible explanation for some accidents would be for the throttle to stick wide open making it impossible for the rider to negotiate the oncoming bend. One unfortunate biker was killed when he tried to overtake a farmer turning right into his small lane without signaling. Motorcyclists by far make up the bulk of A682 fatalities

2. Several cars also come to grief, usually on the reverse bends sections, probably due to driver incompetence more than anything. There are a few potentially dangerous junctions with minor roads which can cause problems and should be re modeled. Simple measures like ripping out the overgrow hedges would suffice in some locations, including some of the now overgrown hedge blind bends. Not that important a road though so no money available for the scale of improvement needed. Traffic is fairly light between Gisburn and Nelson

3. The A682 has more than its fair share of Leg-Irons so overtaking related accidents are common, very few safe opportunities for overtaking and frustration gets the better of many people. Perhaps many of the current chancy " hazard line " sections need to be replaced with solid white lines

The thing is that HGV's use the Gisburn - Long Preston section without major incident since minor modifications in the 1990s. They got rid of almost all with one notable exception the places where two HGV's travelling in opposite directions could not pass without removing the wing mirrors. HGV traffic is heavy and its common to work on six inch clearance on mirrors at up to 100 Mph closing speed

It must be obvious to anyone that the current driver training to pass car driving test is totally inadequate, candidates need to be trained and tested at up to NSL speed on a variety of fast A roads.

It that case, it would be interesting if someone could dig up a breakdown of stats for that road - mainly what percentage was bikes in fatalities/injuries.

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If you think everyone else around you is driving badly, perhaps it's time to examine your own driving.

If you take out the Bike fatalities its doesn't look that comparatively dangerous, have seen the stats but can't give exact details, I believe Cat and Fiddle stats likewise.

1 more apparently A682 experienced biker killed over the weekend.

http://www.clitheroeadvertiser.co.uk/cl ... 5302233.jp

Having driven along this road (A682) a few times, and being a biker before I got married, I can see the attraction it must have to motorcyclists who like to swing along the bends a bit. With modern bikes I would imagine it all too possible to go just a little too fast and lose it, or to swing wide on a bend. OK if there is nothing coming in the opposite direction !

The question is do we remove all risk from life or not ? Clearly there are those who would want to do this by dictat, but will they hear the call to arms when another war beckons ? (which it inevitably will), I think not. We need risk takers even though we might find some of their actions reprehensible in normal life. Most motorcycle accidents are single vehicle accidents with nobody else involved. I hung up my leathers long ago but still wish I could ride out now and again.

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Good manners maketh a good motorist

I for one am pissed off with empty headed politicians squealing for lower speed limits, to do any good on the A682 they would need to be set at 30 Mph when the bulk of the route is safe at close to the current limit of 60, but our foolish electorate keep putting the bent bastards back in at both local and national level.

May I add my five pennorth to this debate please? In October 2009 my son was driving his car along the A682 from gisburn towards Barrowford. He was in a line of traffic all travelling 45 - 50 mph. Near to Rimington Lane having negotiated a left hand bend his car went out of control, across the carriageway, and seconds later was hit by a car going the opposite direction causing him to overturn. He had broken ribs etc etc.
On arrival the police officer's reaction was, "YOU MUST HAVE BEEN SPEEDING" to which an independent witness advised him to the contrary. At that point the two officers, one wearing thick soled walking boots, walked over the stretch of road where my son's vehicle had gone of control and their feet slid from underneath them...... the road was extrememly slippery almost like an ice rink.

Approx one hour later another car travelling towards Barrowford overturned on the same stretch of road. with father mother and 2 children removed to hospital. This time the police caused grit to be spread and called out the Local authority Highways department. They in turn erected temproary 'slippery road surface signs' (which have since been replaced by permanent signs)

A few days later Radio Lancashire ran an item on the A682, in particular these accidents, but Lancashire county council declined to appear. they did however issue a statement that said, in brief, that there was nothing wrong with the road.

During the following month I noted at least 5 different sets of accident damage to the grass verge, walls, signs etc caused by vehicles leaving the road at the same location.

In the last few eeks that section of road hyas been completely resurfaced..... even though there was nothing wrong with it!!!

May I ask if anyone knows of instances where vehicles have been involved in accidents, or have left the road, in 2009 would they kindly leave brief details for me at neil@rta-investigations.co.uk I mention this because, of course, not all accidents are reported to the police, or they don't always record them. Any assistance would be appreciated. Neil

Because a good proportion of people drive and ride like absolute tw*ts?

Still can't understand how a road can be dangerous. It's a piece of tarmac.

Clearly you can't understand. Still, there's always hope. Try reading Neil Longsden's post which indicates that "people (who) drive and ride like absolute tw*ts" aren't necessarily the problem:



Try reading Claire's question as it was intended: why is it so dangerous compared to other similar roads? I hasten to add that I don't know the A682, so I can't make a valid comparison.

Neil: can you help here? What kind of road is it?

Even at your moments of least clarity weepej, I assume you'd concede that the tw*ttishness of people's driving and riding is fairly uniformly distributed over the road network. If so, there must be other factors at work to explain different accident/KSI rates.

Still can't understand how you can't understand the answer that's already been given to you

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Precisely - it continues to baffle me how supposedly intelligent people fail to understand this basic point. Even assuming that all road accidents result from human error, the physical characteristics of some roads, as compared with others, provide more opportunities for making errors and are less forgiving of people who do. Therefore they are more "dangerous" - and it may well be the case, human tw*ttishness being a fairly constant factor, that engineering improvements in such locations are an effective means of reducing the number of accidents.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I should have mentioned in my earlier message that when my son's accident occurred it was a dry bright day. He lost control of his car on a repair patch, one of three, on a 75 metre straight stretch of uphill gradient between two bends. According to independent witnesses he was driving in a safe steady manner and was in a line of vehicles all travelling the same speed, which is safe for that road. When the police officers walked on that repair patch their feet slid from underneath them.
The A682 between M65 and Long Preston is a single carriageway with broken white lines down the centre. However for substantial lengths there are double white line systems operating because one travels barely half a mile between bends. It is subject to the 60 mph NSL for most of its length and runs through predominently a rural area with only villages such as Barrowford, Blacko, and Gisburn, having 30 mph restrictions. It is bounded occasionally by grass verges but mainly by stone walls and hedgerows. There are some road junctions that lead into small hamlets or farms and some entrances to private drives.
A682 carries a high volume of traffic, given its topography. This consists of heavy lorries going to and from local stone quarries or delivering to farms and some commuter traffic. There is also a high volume of tourist traffic, particularly at weekends that consists of caravans being towed, or camping trailers being towed, together with motorcyclists going camping and even pedal cyclists.

Additionally as other correspondents have mentioned there is a high volume of motorcyclists in particular who use the narrow winding twisting topography to test their riding skillls - unfortunately with sometimes fatal results.

I feel a good number of the motorcyclist fatalities may occur because of riders losing control for various reasons and because the road is so narrow (only 6-8 metres wide) they either hit an unforgiving stone wall or, even worse, a vehicle travelling in the opposite direction. I would also add, however, I have seen evidence of accidents occurring when cars have attempted overtakes on double white lines colliding with opposing traffic - so the blame does not lay solely with motorcyclists.

I hope for your sake that you never find out the hard way

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Which highlights 2 points worth repeating:

1. The recent EU (?) survey which rated many UK roads on their safety standards - not highly - and concluded that inadequate barriers was probably the most significant failing.

2. The old JJ Leeming principle that the best way to save lives on the roads is engineering improvements. A slow, wiggly road will likely have far more overtaking-related accidents than a fast straight one. If you can't stop tw*ttishness, remove opportunities for it to arise.

You do not say Neil, but I do hope that your son was OK?
(Burnley Here)
I tried to find some Stats on the Lancs Area but was rapidly sent to the DfT main UK figures. Here (Page 45) shows clearly that we are seeing a bigger percentage of people having accidents sue to 'failed to look properly'. We can ask ourselves why this might be. Considering that the Country has had 18 years of Speed enforcement cameras and policies that say 'watch' your speed, with nothing to say look ahead, pay attention, it is not surprising therefor that riders and drivers are no longer good at observation skills other than watching their speedo's.
It is of immense concern to Safe Speed that this failed policy has continued for so long.
Neil thank you for making us aware of your purpose and objectives it is most interesting indeed.

I can think of many factors that might be at play here :
Road camber,
micro climates (any idea of the temperature that day - MET should have it approximately of no one recorded it locally ?),
recent tarmac is often very, very slippery, (due to the new surface)
- also the edges of plane tarmac and uphill will mean he was very likely to be applying some throttle, couple that with steering on from last (to next bend) new surface and perhaps a error of camber and it could have you 'off' very unexpectedly,
when you say 'dry' was this generally 'dry' did anyone check the road for moisture - you say sunny - in Oct there may well have been some condensation about too, adding to the factors,
you mention various potential for many types of farm and HGV vehicles all of which may have spilt some diesel/oil or even small grit than can act like small ball bearings but not look obviously dangerous,
there is the typical set up too of after many sunny days and then a damp (during the night perhaps?) spell this is classic to cause a slippery surface too,
if the hedges and any trees cause any shadow to the road or area that micro climate may very well act differently to the surrounding tarmac,
and so on ....

Recognising these factors can help drivers to be ever more vigilant and careful.

It does sound like this road is possibly causing much frustration and needs to be re-engineered to help resolve this issue, so less people take less risks. Managing risk and judging well are important factors that every rider & driver need.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Thank you all for your concern. Andrew had 3 broken ribs, whiplash, muscle sprains etc etc and is still on 'light duties' at work. By the way he is 44 years of age and not a 'boy racer' . He was driving a Fiat Punto.

May I say I view the majority of police accident reports with scepticism? In the majority of instances the police officer submitting his/her report is attempting to persuade his supervisor there is no need to make any further investigations as this may then result in the officer having to obtain statements, prepare prosecution files etc. That, I suggest, is why the majority of accidents officially recorded on A682 imply it was the injured driver's sole responsibility by the driver not making proper observations, payhing attention to the road surface, driving to fast for the prevailing conditions etc etc. All those views are usually created in the officer's mind as soon as they arrive on the scene, if not before they arrive.

In my son's case, for example, the traffic officer's first words on arrival and seeing his car upside down were:"YOU MUST HAVE BEEN SPEEDING" Excuse me but there was no marks on the road surface to assist with that crystal ball diagnosis. The reason his car was upside down was because a car travelling the opposite way struck him when he was sideways on across the carriageway seconds after he had struck the offside emabnkment. There was no suggestion by the police officer the third party driver was driving to fast for her forward observations.

It was only when the officer walked on the repair patch, which had been laid months previously, and went "a over t", he reviewed his original opinion, particularly when an independent witness came forward at the scene who had been following my son and explained his driving had been safe and steady.
The accident occurred about 11a.m on a sunday morning. The road surface was dry to the touch but I don't suppose the police officer carried a 'moisture meter'. There was two vehicles in front of him travelling at the same speed and several other behind. According to witnesses none of them was gaining on each other, just driving along steadily.
When I arrived at the scene approx 1 hr later there was no evidence of any oil spillage, road debris, or animal manure. The police officers told me they had not swept the road and there was nothing present at the scene when they arrived that could have cuased him to go out of control except the slippery road surface. The witness in the car behind has made a statement that confirms when he applied emergency braking he also 'fishtailed' and slid round the rear of the Punto that was sideways on across the carriageway.
Hope the above is of assistance..

Pleased to hear that your son is OK in spite of some nasty injuries.

It sounds like the surface is clearly needing investigation from what you say. Were any samples taken ?
Was the surface recently laid? Do you know when and who undertook the work, and what product they laid precisely (Council should hold the records) ?

Interesting that the car behind states that they have gone 'around the punto', yet the oncoming car hit him, so there was a pause or gap between those 2 events. This implies too that the car following was too close as they were unable to stop prior to the incident.

The Police prior opinion is of concern, errors in their reporting of incidents might provide a very different aspect to an accident if it is wrong. Whilst there is some allowlance for this it is recognised as a problem.
Seeking real root causes of accidents and addressing those issues helps to prevent further accidents. The mis-guided reporting and errors make this a far harder task so helping accident reporting and ensuring that the facts are absolutely accurate is of immense importance.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I'm told that in fatal )or very serious accidents), the investigators sometimes tow the crashed vehicle (or as similar a vehicle as they can find if it's too badly damaged) along the bit of raod in question with a Range Rover or truck. There is a load cell in the tow rope and the occupant of the towed vehicle has the brakes hard on so that the wheels are skidding. I think (if it's true) this is one technique for measuring the amount of grip available. Presumably, this accident wasn't serious enough for such an investigation to have been carried out? Different grades of tarmac certainly have different grip characteristics. Could the new stuff have been sub-standard? Are there any dips, humps or bumps nearby that might slosh diesel out of truck tanks with missing or poorly fitting caps? It would be interesting to travel DOWn that hill in a car with good brakes and ABS in various conditions - each time, braking hard, such that the wheels were close to locking up on the stretch immediately before the patch(es) of new tarmac, just to see if they locked up as soon as they got on to the new bits - indicating a possible reduction in the grip available compared to the surrounding tarmac. Probably not the easiest or most repeatable test to carry out, but might give a very rough indication as to whether it's that particular grade of tarmac?

'Most dangerous' UK roads named by safety group,
Half of all fatal road crashes occur on just one-tenth of UK roads, according to charity the Road Safety Foundation.

Its report, covering 28,000 miles of A-roads and motorways, says Scotland has the highest risk highways, followed by parts of northern England.

It identified the A537 between Macclesfield, Cheshire, and Buxton, Derbyshire, as the most dangerous road.

The charity wants government spending to be targeted at improving safety on the most dangerous roads.

Its report, entitled Saving Lives for Less, suggests the high cost of emergency services and hospitals could be avoided by spending small sums in accident blackspots.

The foundation is the UK arm of the European Road Assessment Programme, the sister organisation of EuroNCAP which measures car safety.

Junction danger

It examined accident data relating to roads across Britain. Among its conclusions were:

A third of all fatal and serious crashes happen at junctions
Single roads carry six times the risk of motorways and twice that of dual carriageways
One-in-four fatal or serious crash on A-roads or motorways involves a motorcyclist
There was a 5% reduction in the number of fatal crashes on such roads in the last three years
West Midlands is the safest region
The most improved road was named as the A40 between Llandovery and Carmarthen.

Improved junctions and markings, along with resurfacing with high friction, anti-skid treatments, saw the number of serious accidents fell from 27 between 2003 and 2005 to seven in the following three years.
More Here,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10454356.stm

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nigel_bytes