Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Mon Oct 27, 2025 07:07

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 09:12 
Offline
User

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 21:10
Posts: 1693
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090816/tuk ... dbed5.html

Personally. In these situations I try to park paralell to the clif edge, facing slightly downhill but with the front wheels turned up hill (IYSWIM) that way it is "Impossible" for the car to roll down hill and over the edge whatever happens to the gear lever/handbrake.

Similarly, if I am parking on a hilly road I will try to to park the car so that if anything lets go, it will roll up against the kerb and stop rather than flying off down the hill.

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 13:02 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 23:28
Posts: 1940
I do likewise. :clap: I think the advice Vauxhall gave out re the dodgy handbrake on Vectras also advise this. It ist also in the Highway Code too,. (Rule 252 ... )


I call it prudent common sense to take all due care..

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien
!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 15:11 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
I was taught always to leave the car in gear when parking (reverse if facing down hill, first otherwise) and to leave the handbrake off, chocking the wheels if on a slope, when leaving the car parked for more than a few hours.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 15:41 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
dcbwhaley wrote:
I was taught always to leave the car in gear when parking (reverse if facing down hill, first otherwise) and to leave the handbrake off, chocking the wheels if on a slope, when leaving the car parked for more than a few hours.

I wasn't taught that, but I do it anyway (well it does make sense). Bit more difficult with an auto though.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 16:01 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
I was taught always to leave the car in gear when parking (reverse if facing down hill, first otherwise) and to leave the handbrake off, chocking the wheels if on a slope, when leaving the car parked for more than a few hours.

I wasn't taught that, but I do it anyway (well it does make sense). Bit more difficult with an auto though.


The bit about not leaving the handbrake on was that there was a danger of the pads sticking to the drums. I assume that discs don't have that problem.

Isn't the Park position on an automatic the same as leaving it in gear?

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 16:09 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
dcbwhaley wrote:
Isn't the Park position on an automatic the same as leaving it in gear?

TBH I don't know, is it?

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 16:22 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 14:26
Posts: 4364
Location: Hampshire/Wiltshire Border
The Park position on a conventional auto box mechanically locks the output shaft usually by means of a pin engaging into the shaft.

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 16:44 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
I didn't know that. Ta!

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 17:58 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 22:02
Posts: 3266
The pin on an auto must go thtough some great stresses in its lifetime. Most americans com to a halt, ignore the parking break and the car rolls forwars or back 6" onto the parking pin on the transmission and rocks a few times. Sods law dictates that the time the pin fails it will be a bit steeper and far more hazardous and you will be in half in and half out the car.

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 21:01 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 13:55
Posts: 2247
Location: middlish
interestingly (or not) this is why electric park brakes do or should have interlocks with ignition/occupant sensing/brake pedal etc to prevent accidental disengagement.. .even easier with a wee little switch.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 21:14 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3434
Quote:
I was taught always to leave the car in gear when parking (reverse if facing down hill, first otherwise) and to leave the handbrake off, chocking the wheels if on a slope, when leaving the car parked for more than a few hours.


I can understand your point about leaving the handbrake off when parking up for a period of time such as a couple of weeks but a handbrake won't seize on after only a couple of hours (unless its really minus several degrees and your cable is full of moisture....I've known that happen). The point is, unless it is very well chocked (can you always find something to chock it with?), the engine won't always hold it in first or reverse gear if the slope is steep enough and the vehicle heavy enough and I'm sure if it were to roll and cause damage, the police would take a dim view if the handbrake hadn't been applied.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 22:29 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 19:56
Posts: 15
dcbwhaley wrote:
(reverse if facing down hill, first otherwise)


Was your degree won from the University of Stating The Bleeding Obvious?

_________________
Wenlock Edge was umbered. And bright was Abdon Burf. And warm, beneath them, slumbered the smooth, green miles of turf


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 05:01 
Offline
User

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 17:12
Posts: 618
Location: Borough of Queens, NYC, NY USA
Wikipedia, which is probably sufficiently accurate for these purposes, wrote:
A parking pawl is a device fitted to a car's automatic transmission that locks up the transmission. It is engaged when the shift selector is placed in the Park position, which is always the first position (topmost on a column shift, frontmost on a floor shift) in all cars sold in the United States since 1965 (when the order was standardised by the SAE) and in most other vehicles worldwide.

The parking pawl locks the transmission's output shaft to the transmission casing by engaging a pawl (a pin) that engages in a notched wheel on the shaft, stopping it (and thus the driven wheels) from turning.

Most manufacturers and mechanics do not recommend using the transmission's parking pawl as the sole means of securing a parked vehicle, instead recommending it should be engaged after first applying the vehicle's parking brake. Constant use of the parking pawl only, especially when parking on a steep incline, means that driveline components are kept constantly under stress, and can cause wear and eventual failure of the parking pawl or transmission linkage. The pawl might also fail or break if the vehicle is pushed with sufficient force, if the parking brake is not firmly engaged. Replacement can be an expensive operation since it generally requires removing the transmission from the car.

It highly inadvisable to use the parking pawl to stop a vehicle in motion. The pawl mechanism is not strong enough to stop a vehicle in motion or may not engage at all. Under that much stress, the pawl may break off in the transmission, leading to costly repairs.
Whether or not I park on an incline, I point the front wheels so that, whether forwards or backwards, the car will not roll into traffic.
Additionally, if there is a curb (kerb?), I turn my wheels toward it, which would also prevent the car from rolling into traffic, while also satisfying the previous condition above.
With either a front tire, or a front and rear tire both in contact with the curb, effectively holding the car in place, I then set the cable brake, and then put the shifter in park. Rubber and concrete handle such stresses better than brake shoes and drums, which in turn do better than the parking pawl.

Cable brakes and parking pawls are not meant to stop a car, they're meant to keep the car still.
(Yes, I know that the cable brake is often referred to as an emergency brake because it might be able to stop the car, but that isn't it's primary purpose, and as Paige well knows, it might not stop the car.)

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 08:06 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
kiteless wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
(reverse if facing down hill, first otherwise)


Was your degree won from the University of Stating The Bleeding Obvious?


No from the University of Communicating With Total Morans (with special Honours in Putting Down Smart-Arses0

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 09:43 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 13:55
Posts: 2247
Location: middlish
The Rush wrote:
Cable brakes and parking pawls are not meant to stop a car, they're meant to keep the car still.
(Yes, I know that the cable brake is often referred to as an emergency brake because it might be able to stop the car, but that isn't it's primary purpose, and as Paige well knows, it might not stop the car.)


hmmmm euro legislation at least says the park brake must be capable of acheiving a certain decel level from around 50kph to stationary.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 13:23 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 00:01
Posts: 2258
Location: South Wales
ed_m wrote:
hmmmm euro legislation at least says the park brake must be capable of acheiving a certain decel level from around 50kph to stationary.


And as the car gets older, how likely is that to still be the case, I just changed the handbrake shoes and fixed up the cable on my 91 Volvo and it was still running the original shoes which had uneven wear due to the little metal bracket that positions them having becoming bent over time.

The handbrake barely stopped the car on a mild incline, I certainly wouldn't rely on it on a clifftop. Most people wouldn't bother to fix it either.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 14:34 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 13:55
Posts: 2247
Location: middlish
Lum wrote:
ed_m wrote:
hmmmm euro legislation at least says the park brake must be capable of acheiving a certain decel level from around 50kph to stationary.


And as the car gets older, how likely is that to still be the case, I just changed the handbrake shoes and fixed up the cable on my 91 Volvo and it was still running the original shoes which had uneven wear due to the little metal bracket that positions them having becoming bent over time.

The handbrake barely stopped the car on a mild incline, I certainly wouldn't rely on it on a clifftop. Most people wouldn't bother to fix it either.


only a requirement for homologation i think... although isn't there a handbrake test on the rolling road in the MOT ?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 15:11 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
ed_m wrote:
Lum wrote:

only a requirement for homologation i think... although isn't there a handbrake test on the rolling road in the MOT ?


It gets tested on the IVA for a kit car, not sure if it does for an imported car though.

dcbwhaley wrote:
The bit about not leaving the handbrake on was that there was a danger of the pads sticking to the drums. I assume that discs don't have that problem.


Cars with rear discs can have a small drum for the handbrake as this gets around the problem of the discs cooling, contracting and the hand brake loosening. Not all rear disc setups are done like this, I think most of them are though, Mole would probably know.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 22:43 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 19:56
Posts: 15
dcbwhaley wrote:
kiteless wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
(reverse if facing down hill, first otherwise)


Was your degree won from the University of Stating The Bleeding Obvious?


No from the University of Communicating With Total Morans (with special Honours in Putting Down Smart-Arses0


Ah.

It was a Class III degree, I see. With a fail in the spelling and bracketry-use module.

_________________
Wenlock Edge was umbered. And bright was Abdon Burf. And warm, beneath them, slumbered the smooth, green miles of turf


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cliftop parking!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 08:33 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 13:55
Posts: 2247
Location: middlish
meanwhile some better piccies and a bit of hunting..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... cliff.html
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-New ... 2152?f=rss

shows the vehicle in question is a 'grand c4 picasso'
http://www.citroen.co.uk/new-cars/citro ... 4-picasso/

looks like it has electrically actuated park brake.

"manual, automatic and Electronic Gearbox System (EGS) transmission options"
presumably must be a manual as auto & i presume EGS would have park lock ?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 101 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.024s | 11 Queries | GZIP : Off ]