Safe Speed Forums

All most interesting thanks.

Shame that the Conference is so very expensive !

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

SAm - Well done you!

Many thanks for these useful links. Claire - I am sure the conference will have a post confererence feedback booklet about all salient points. Such events usually do. This may also be "pricey" but less so than the conference fees. You can perhaps contact the organisers to find out whether or not they are publishing one for your records. In any case - the link to the book about winter risks and controls -

As for COST 344 ...all EU states have varying climates and apart from gritting ...and using snow ploughs in the Highlands - there has been some complancency perhaps over a series of fairly mild winters and a belief that winters will become wetter and milder due to "climate change". Last winter - all of EU perhaps got caught out - including Switzerland per Wildy's links at the time to their complete gridlock in ice.

Some ideas were implemented - others adapted. All areas subject to local council policies

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Mmmmm. It's our money that's being spent (looking at the speakers and last year's delegates list)

Thanks for your support NB, believe it or not , I've started a precis-list of all useful comment, opinion and ideas which have come from this topic. Here are the ones which
I've sent to the Highways' Agency:

About the challenges of producing a leaflet which engages winter-motorists.....engagement is the essential but missing ingredient. I'd like to repeat my view that even at careful driving-speeds, icy roads make vehicle-control and non-injurious collision unlikely. Ref your organisation's preparations for winter 2009, may I ask you to consider the following ideas:
· Broadcast the coloured, ice-prediction maps produced by ‘Openroute’ as part of local-tv weather forecasts.
· Avoid the passive nature of a leaflet. Offer incentives for motorists to respond to it.
· Review and promote products and methods which are a direct aid to the winter-motorist........sprayon tyre-traction aids, infra-red thermometers, icy roads make
tyres quieter , etc
· Provide an FOC telephone line to encourage winter motorists to report, during their journey, dangerous roads, damage only accidents and near misses. These incidents
are statistically-significant. Don't rely on 'after-the-event' KSI's as a measure of success.
· Please don’t just make reference to the Institute of Advanced Motorists warning about black-ice in your leaflet, include the warning in the leaflet .
· Make a count of unused leaflets, in Spring 2010. Find a basis to evaluate (£s) their success or the need for change in type/style of communication.
· Analyse your Traffic-Officer’s leaflet comments, e.g., ...'check conditions before you leave'... Simplify them, add them to a simplified version of your...'key
messages'.... turn the key messages into bullet points. Publish the bullet points as a pullout for the motorist to use as a checklist.
· If an experienced Traffic Officer has strong doubts about setting out on a winter journey, emphasise and publicise the key factors which gave him those doubts. Don't
hesitate to say 'Don't travel if you don't need to' (instead of the current.... 'think about whether you really need to travel at all'....., which is weak and leaves the onus on
the motorist. Are we really convinced that the motorist is equipped to make a safe decision?). Make 'Don't travel if you don't need to' the lead slogan for the
winter-campaign.

Could you elucidate, please, In Gear?

sam.. I hope me and Vrenchen helped you here. I also add to IG's applaud. I am sure he can expand on COST 344/ That guy posts something and .. heck .. can you credit . . some tablod story crops up later which shows he's quite insufferably right.

We try to help .. with common sense.. stuff we've read . .. personal experiences... and our enthusiasm and complee desire to learn all we can. and improve as constant.

You are a kindred spirit .. and you want justice for your daugher and you also want all to learn from your family's bitter experience .. and you have that WOW factor in all you have achieved and in attitude regarding what I know to be a parent's worst nighmare .. speaking personally as a father to a fairly large brood here.

YOU have my RESPECT 100%.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Samandben,

From time to time, people come here, claiming to have suffered a 'road safety related' loss in the family.

They then unleash a ... mindset ... that is completely unproductive, standoffish, and changes nothing for the better for anyone.

On the other hand, you engaged us in a manner which I found a most pleasant surprise. You actually had the temerity to repeatedly ask for our thought and imagination to trying to change things for the better for everyone. What you've accomplished is noteworthy.

Thank you, sir. People like you are a breath of fresh air. Your example is a shining inspiration.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

I'd better apologise in advance, Buddy, 'cos I'm afraid that there's more requests to come.

I hope so .. You make meaningful waves there :clap;

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

OK folks, my meeting with the Team Leader for the Highways Agency's National Winter Team is set for Friday 4th August.

He's responsible for the Agency's winter service policy,and provides an input to their winter related media campaigns.

He says
...'our discussion would be very timely as we are currently developing our winter media messages, and input from your informed viewpoint will be helpful in targeting our media campaigns to get the maximum benefit'.......

Let's hope that I can do justice to the meeting.

I WILL BE VERY PLEASED TO TAKE IDEAS FROM YOU FOLKS TO THE MEETING.

4th of September???? Or have I missed it?!

The closest I'll allow you to come to an apology, is you can let me buy you a beer, and I'll toast to you.If you continue in the spirit that you have here, hope will be redundant.

Rock on.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

Doh!!!!! The meeting's a week Friday (4th Sept). I'm that careless, I think I'd better cry off!

Golly that is tempting to stay down for !!

Sounds really interesting - the conference that is.

I have liked the idea that if we could melt the ice in front of the car tyres then we'd never skid on ice - (might aquaplane of course !)
Since we already have metal in the tyres I wonder if the friction and heat already in the tyres can't be enhanced (enough) to melt the ice. Trouble is the need for the 'instant melt'.
I guess lasers could do it ! OR a 'wash' placed in front of the tyres, either wet or 'other' to enable a grip or an ice solver.
Warm the road surface ... ah 100's of ideas .... just none of them workable ! (yet) ... I suppose if you spiked the ice enough then each car would help in turn to crush all the ice and make good clear/er pathways.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I may be out of touch with what they currently preach, but in hilly areas, I don't think they emphasise the perils of frozen slopes enough. Many drivers seem to assume that getting UP the frozen slope will be the difficult bit, in fact it's coming down that's the problem more often than not! If I've seen it mentioned in the past, it's usually very vague - along the lines of "take extra care on steep hills" or somesuch. I think it needs more emphasis on the fact that going down can be the more dangerous problem and why. More and more cars these days have 4 wheel drive - which doubles the mount of traction to help you up a hill, but ALL cars have 4 wheel brakes, so coming down the other side, you're almost no better off! Moving on from that, tehre are all the associated problems (like drivers following each other down a hill so that if the first one (or perhaps worse, the 5th one!) looses grip, they all end up in a big pile at the bottom! Certainly, I'd like to see some advice along the lines of "wait at the bottom / top of a section of sloping road for the preceding vehicle to be clear before starting your ascent / descent".

Also, that tyre spray that Rush mentioned. That would be worth trying over here.

Winter tyres are (I think) mandatory in some countries on the continent. I think people think of "winter tyres" as meaning "studded" tyres. They're not, they're just ordinary tyres with all their characteristics optimised for cold weather operation, and the DO make quite a difference. I wouldn't want to go as far as seeing them made a legal requirement over here, but people should be made aware of the benefits.

[Claire, if you sit in one place with your wheels spinning for long enough, you CAN melt the ice under them, but it's a much slower process than you'd think]!

1) (Apologies, if I'm repeating myself?)Imagine if, every time the Traction Control or Stability Control approached its intervention threshold - just before individual calipers started clapping rotors - and it was 41°F / 5°C or colder, the on-board traction enhancement resin would be sprayed on the tires. That might
a) enhance grip just before and during the typical intervention mode, squeezing more effectiveness out of the Traction /Stability Control Systems
and/or
b) minimize or avoid the caliper pulsing events
It could also be applied by the driver at will, say, just before ascending/descending hills, for example.
(This may lead to a new traffic warning sign being mounted in certain places by the government ...
"Steep Incline. Consider applying traction aids."
Auto manufacturers may also feel the need to warn drivers that their vehicles will not float if the frozen pond they try to drive across shatters, since the resin cannot affect hydroplaning thresholds.)

As far as tires are concerned, I absolutely agree that people should be made aware of the benefits of how winter tires' aggressive sipes, tread/void patterns, and rubber compound are better suited for not only general cold weather, but in many cases, specifically for snow and ice.

2)
However, why isn't it possible/feasible to fit studs to any tire at any time? You can slip on a TireSock, or spray on TireGrip anytime, regardless of tire spec. Of course, you'd wait till road conditions made it necessary. That said,

a) I can imagine an elastic ring, or elastic rings, of tire studs secured around the tire might be at least as effective as a TireSock.

b) Why are only some 'winter tires' studdable? At least theoretically, how would a set of summer or all season tires suffer if they were designed with the ability to accept polymer studs? You'd have the additional option of applying them, or the laissez-faire option of doing what most people normally do
Note that these would differ from option 'a'. You'd go to a [tire] mechanic who'd apply them to tires designed to facilitate a somewhat more permanent fixture of the studs. You'd then either go back to the shop to have them removed, or the polymer studs would simply wear out, designed to expire before the rubber.

3)
I wonder how you all feel about Tire Cables? (Not Tire Chains; Cables feature much tighter clearances than chains.)

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

brilliant idea, they look like "bungy straps", might try "bungys" next time we get some bad snow, even if they pack up after 100 yards or so it might be enough to get you out of trouble.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

The SIRWEC publication (http://www.sirwec.org/en/rwis_web_guide.pdf ) one of the links which I provided earlier, discusses the reality of using heated roadsurfaces

Please see the ref to....... ' the selection of tyres with appropriate tread-pattern and material must be considered'...... on Page 36 of the SIRWEC (http://www.sirwec.org/en/rwis_web_guide.pdf ) document!!!! Isn't it paradoxical when you consider that they're referring to the needs of the salt-spreading vehicle?!!! The searchterm 'tyres' doesn't reveal a similar caution about other vehicles in that document.

I think we have to be realistic in this country when we talk of heated road surfaces and winter tyres.

How much money/time do we spend on repairing the potholes/resurfacing the roads in this country, let alone the work/cost in laying a heated road surface throughout the whole UK...it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes.

As for winter tyres, again how many people in the UK would consider the outlay of say having a spare set of wheels with winter tyres on and then going to the trouble of changing them/getting them changed at the onset of our "winter". I certainly can't imagine people going out and changing a fairly good set of "summer" tyres for new winter ones if it meant having them on the only set of wheels thay they possessed, especially if they expect to only see a couple of days of snow and maybe four weeks of frost/ice.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

sam. yet again for all this. My three young drivers.. William .. Nick and Steff hold you in esteem as a fellow on line mentor to them. They are young .. 22 and 2o years. Nickand Steff are twins.. we have .. ummm .. a family history of twins but never expected Paula and Klaire all the same six mnths or so ago now

They read and drink in good practice. They regard your posts here as sound advice to them .. and we thank you for helping us teach our own kids here I think our kids will post here soon, They are active as kids are on the internet but .. on this site.. they are shy. I asked them why , One reason was ,, we would not like safe spped to be polarised or capsizes by a huge family wave who post COAST as a unit.

But more significantly . our three yong drivers think they do not know enough to make meaningful comment. I have told them that all on here are like us .. their parents.. in wanting to help as genuine fellow humans. Our thhree driver kids have IAM and RoSPA Golds already. I guess we taught well then, but they rightly say . they still have much to learn all the same. I think we have taught the right attitudes BUT they say they think you are telling t them that bit more and I have to thank you for this gift to my own kids., THANK YOU! I mean this .. you heped sset the stone of safety here... cannot thank enough as you said what we said but as "distant" . you added support io us, So THANK YOU!

Grabls ,. get your point Wildy's always had winter v normal tyres. Foreign., Yep .. we have mild winters . in fact - not much different to summer these days, Sure you get snow/ice/deep chill on hihg groound ... but most ofEnglan shivers . has somefrost but no reali hard weather each year on year. which was the excuse for poor performancess overall in the 2008/2009 winter CHILL UP!

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.