Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Wed Apr 29, 2026 00:53

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:22 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 13:07
Posts: 204
Location: Kent
While it seems fair (if a little cynical) to say that politics will have the final say on speed cameras, science is the key. DfT carries out its research because it can. It has a large influence on the methodology. We cite what we can, but until we have tested our hypotheses properly, much of our protest is nothing more than that.

So what experiments would we conduct to test our theories?

What hypotheses and methods could we devise which would provide firm and credible alternatives to the DfT claims? How could we control for all the extraneous variables?

There certainly does seem to be a rising tide of public feeling and media interest on the issue. That might mean that someone would be interested in paying for such research...If we had some novel experiments 'on the shelf' it could be useful.

We know that skilled drivers are safer than unskilled but law abiding drivers. We know that speed cameras might be distracting. We know that prevention is proabably better than punishment.

If we got some time with a driving simulator how would we use it?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 13:08 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Excellent question. I have a large mental list and it's about time it was written down. Here are a few notes to start the ball rolling.

* Overall effects of HGV speed limiters.

* Understanding excessive speed crashes. How many are caused or contributed to by normal responsible motorists exceeding a speed limit?

* Driver performance around speed cameras. Is hazard recognition affected?

* Defining and measuring our national road safety culture.

* What training works? How to deliver improved risk management and improved margin for error.

[more later]

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 16:43 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 13:07
Posts: 204
Location: Kent
I'd be interested in sitting subjects down on a driving simulator with 2 groups. Both groups would get paid £20 each or so for participating.

Both groups would drive an identical scenario with hazards built in and measurable responses to those hazards recorded. Accident avoided/not avoided/Eye movement?/Braking?/speed?/talkthrough?/

Both groups would be told to drive 'safely' and as they would 'normally' drive. Both groups would be told that they would lose £5 of their fee if they drive 'unsafely', i.e. perform under a set level.

1st group would drive through the course.
2nd group would drive through the same course but with visible speed cameras added and told that they will lose an additional £5 of their fee if they are 'caught' by the speed camera.

Performance of the task would be recorded for each group.

Possible extra control group needed where no financial penalty is imposed.

Does this sound right? What would be the methodological pitfalls of this?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 03:28 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Sam Dentten wrote:
What would be the methodological pitfalls of this?


Simulators are nowhere near the real world in terms of visual resolution, so my primary concern would be that any results obtained would be unrealistic - you just can't 'scan to the horizon' on a simulator in the same way as you would when driving.

Choosing urban environments (where hazards are closer) would help it to make it more realistic.

It's certainly one of the subjects that we need to learn far more about.

There's a post grad student in Belfast studying drivers' visual search using an eyeball position monitoring rig, and he was planning to look at the effect on visual search of speed cameras. I last spoke to him about a year ago. I'll check progress.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:18 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4815
Location: Essex
SafeSpeed wrote:
Sam Dentten wrote:
What would be the methodological pitfalls of this?


Simulators are nowhere near the real world in terms of visual resolution, so my primary concern would be that any results obtained would be unrealistic - you just can't 'scan to the horizon' on a simulator in the same way as you would when driving.

Choosing urban environments (where hazards are closer) would help it to make it more realistic.

It's certainly one of the subjects that we need to learn far more about.

There's a post grad student in Belfast studying drivers' visual search using an eyeball position monitoring rig, and he was planning to look at the effect on visual search of speed cameras. I last spoke to him about a year ago. I'll check progress.


Agreed. However, I personally think that, given a set of gaming goggles (with side screens too to give peripheral vision), it would be possible with today's technology to go a very long way for drivers wanting to improve their hazard perception . provided they were accompanied by a very experienced driver to do some rewinding and slomo plays as part of the deal. Some of this could simply be done by playing film - it is not essential to be in control of the "car" to drive it mentally.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 17:59 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 16:34
Posts: 923
Location: UK
SafeSpeed wrote:
Simulators are nowhere near the real world in terms of visual resolution, so my primary concern would be that any results obtained would be unrealistic - you just can't 'scan to the horizon' on a simulator in the same way as you would when driving.

The other problem is that no matter how realistic a simulator is, the driver will never behave quite the same as in a real car because there are no consequences of making a mistake.

The only thing I can think of is to possibly to off to pay people £100 to do a days testing but withdraw the payment if they are caught "speeding" at a certain time.

Aircraft simulators are a bit different because on a final test after spending years of thousands of pounds on training, the pilot has no intention of just saying "whoopsy" after crashing into the ground!

Gareth


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 18:18 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
g_attrill wrote:
Aircraft simulators are a bit different because on a final test after spending years of thousands of pounds on training, the pilot has no intention of just saying "whoopsy" after crashing into the ground!


Also, no normal aircraft flying decision would be taken because of the slight visual clues - yet as car drivers we do it all the time; the shadow under a parked car; the glint through a hedge. Then few aircrasft flight decisions are real time ones; now or 30 seconds later makes no real difference except during take off and landing...

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 13:03 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416
Okay, there are inherent problems with simulators, but I think Sam's had a good idea. What we really want to test is whether driving priorities change in the presence of speed cameras and/or different styles of enforcement, and sadly I don't think TPTB will be persuaded to co-operate by turning 'em all off in the real world. I don't think the problem of not being a perfectly realistic simulation (shadows under cars, horizons etc) is a huge one providing we don't try to test any changes there. In any case I think simulated urban driving would be the way to go since simualted motorway driving would tell us a lot less anyhow. The big problem is the one g_attrill identified - the stakes aren't the same in a simulator. Even paying test subjects £100 and docking them all of it isn't going to be enough as I think more drivers fear the points than the fine. Plus of course witholding some or all of the payment isn't such a big deal as they didn't have that money when they walked in the door.

Assuming that could be overcome I think there'd need to be more groups in the test.
  • One with zero enforcement, possibly as the control group.
  • Another one should have the sort of discretionary enforcement we'd like to see, perhaps by having a trafplod or ex-trafplod nominate a lurking site in the simulation and then being given the info on how the subject was driving at that location. If there was an offence the trafplod could then say whether he'd give a ticket, stern lecture, advice or ignore it. Subjects would be told that there may be virtual trafplod about.
  • One should have conditions close to the original intention for cameras - perhaps small numbers of scams in dodgy areas set to pick off warp speed drivers, perhaps also with discretionary trafplod as above. At the least subjects should be told that there may be trafplod present in the simulation.
  • One should have close to real world conditions at the moment - fairly good chance of being caught at 10%+2 or more with visible scams
  • Another one could be just the same but with very hard to spot scams. The idea here is that if, as we think, visible scams can distract, would distraction be lessened by invisible or would drivers be even more distracted because they spend all their time trying to spot the damn things.
I think it would also be interesting if it were possible to include other road users in the sim and model their behaviour on that of the test subject. Obviously that would carry the assumption that the test subject is typical of all the virtual traffic in the sim, but if we expect distraction in the test subject it's not an unreasonable assumption. If that were possible it would probably be better to try it out on only half of each group and have the virtual traffic in the other half all behaving in an ideal way. That way we could get an insight not only into how individuals change in response to the risk of getting pinged and whether their risk level changes, but also what might be happening on a wider scale. If there is distraction I'd expect only the testee to be at more risk when the virtual traffic is behaving ideally, but chaos when their standard of driving determines that of the rest of the simulated road users.


Another test could be done on real roads with real drivers, and would knock all the simulator problems on the head. Stick a mini video camera in the dash, preferably as near to the speedo as possible, and point it straight up at the drivers face. There would be a second camera pointing at the road ahead as close as possible to the driver's viewpoint (probably on top of the dash cowling). Both videos would be time stamped, or if the cameras could both go to the same tape in a sort of split screen arrangement that'd be even better. The idea is that the driver would just trundle round as they would normally and the video cameras would record what's ahead and how the driver reacts. In particular it would record how much time the driver spends looking at the dash when they come across a scamera or Talivan :wink: . While you can't change the scenario from cameras to no cameras like you could with a simulator, you can at least drive in different areas and see how much time is spent speedo watching in the most scam infested areas of the country compared to areas with very few scams (or maybe even Durham :wink: ). The big plus is that it's all in the real world, with real points if you get pinged and real hospital food if you end up in a tree. It would probably be cheaper than designing a simulator scenario as well. Couple of wireless home security cameras would do, and you can get them about matchbox sized now for not a huge amount. No idea how much a VCR that can do split screen recording, though. I imagine it would be one of those ones normally used for CCTV in shops, but with wireless cameras it might be a realistic alternative to record to a laptop. I'm only thinking about testing the speedo watching effect of Gatsos with this, but maybe with more cams or different set-ups could it be adapted for other purposes?

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 13:14 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:19
Posts: 1795
If you're going to use real roads and real drivers then using an eye tracker is your best bet. It tracks both eye movements, knows what someone is looking at and records what they see at the same time. You might need to add a supplementary video camera on the dash to record the forward view too if the subject spends a lot of time looking at the dashboard! You could then just record the movement and video from the eye tracker and sync it with the video from the normal video camera. Something like adobe premier could then be used to create the split screen with each video in a separate screen section. DV cams aren't that expensive. Eye trackers are a few hundred I think.

We could compare both Durham and North Wales :)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 13:42 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416
Yeah, I was trying to come up with a kind of poor man's eyeball tracker :lol: . You'd certainly get much more info using the proper gear, not just speedo checks round scameras but also what happens in places where the authorities have gone crazy with signs and street furniture :roll: , what happens in different sorts of traffic calming :evil: , the effects of under dressed supermodels on billboards :shock: :P and so on. But it occurred to me that if all you wanted to test was speedo checks it could probably be done easily and cheaply with the two wireless camera set-up. All we'd need to record is where the driver looks when a camera appears on the road ahead.

teabelly wrote:
We could compare both Durham and North Wales :)
My thoughts exactly :mrgreen: . It'd be interesting to create a map of UK roads that showed where drivers do most speedo checks. :idea: Better yet, if we knew the vehicle speeds while the speedo checks were going on we could work out distances covered during speedo checks as well. That might tell us if scams create a greater or lesser degree of distraction on faster roads.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 14:05 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:19
Posts: 1795
I'd have thought it might be possible to borrow one from somewhere. I know my university has one knocking around but I don't know how sophisticated it is. Someone must hire these things out!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:59 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 13:00
Posts: 23
Location: Herts
SafeSpeed wrote:
Here are a few notes to start the ball rolling.

* Overall effects of HGV speed limiters.

* Understanding excessive speed crashes. How many are caused or contributed to by normal responsible motorists exceeding a speed limit?

* Driver performance around speed cameras. Is hazard recognition affected?

* Defining and measuring our national road safety culture.

* What training works? How to deliver improved risk management and improved margin for error.

[more later]


I have emailed a Psychologist & biker good friend of mine for any links & references. There has been loads of psychology research on this topic - some of which I am aware of - but I have asked him for some key links.

Who knows he may even come directly into the forum? :)

_________________
Bill

All great journeys begin with a single step


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.016s | 10 Queries | GZIP : Off ]