Safe Speed Forums

I hope you're not saying 'pavements are for pedestrians only' in the same way that others who are less understanding would say 'roads are for cars only'
notes to self (not meant to be noticed by anyone else):
http:/ /www.bolton.gov.uk/website/pages/Roadsaccesstoproperty.aspx?bid=1039 "vehicle to gain access over the pavement"

http:/ /http://www.rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk/stellent/groups/public/documents/hcst/content.hcst?lang=en&&xNodeID=477#P10_173 "kerbstones on the pavement are lowered towards the road level to allow a vehicle to be driven across the pavement"

http:/ /www.leeds.gov.uk/page.aspx?pageidentifier=ca3a3ed9-0903-42f1-9158-738d57ddbd5f "A vehicular crossing is an area of lowered pavement and kerb"

http:/ /74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:oTICnweqaTkJ:www.portsmouthcc.gov.uk/AtoZ/4920.htm+http:/ /www.portsmouth.gov.uk/AtoZ/4920.html&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&lr=lang_en "Dropped kerbs allow cars to mount the pavement"

Moderator message:
This thread has been split off from this post.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Yes I am, pavements are for pedestrians only. Car's, motorcycles and cycles (except where it's designated a shared path) are specifically forbidden by law to ride or drive along them.

There is no law to stop pedestrians using the road, roads are not "for cars only".

Motor vehicles (and pushbikes) are allowed to cross pavements to get into/emerge out of entrances, just as pedestrians are allowed to cross roads to get to other pavements. The key here is the of obstruction of travelling 'along' (or remaining stationary) in those areas which has likely led, at least in part, to the rules of 'right of way'.

Some roads indeed are for motor-users only (motorways and other segregated roads), just as some pavements are for pedestrians only (non-dropped kerbs), but in general: roads are not 'for cars only', just as pavements are not 'for pedestrians only'.
Failure to recognise this leads to failure to share the shared space we have, as well as needlessly generating friction between road user groups.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Pedestrains are not forbidden by law from walking along roads, but cars, motorbikes and pedal cycles are forbidden by law from travelling along pavemnents (with some exceptions for pedal cycles).

No one said they were!
My previous post contained the key phrase "obstruction of travelling 'along'", not just 'travelling along'. I hope you can see other road users better than you can see my text



Why must you misrepresent the situation by referring to this as only 'travelling along pavements'?
If a vehicle/bike can cross a lowered pavement (do you accept they can?), them it must follow that pavements aren't just 'for pedestrians only', right?

Few pedestrians a dumb enough to walk along a road and hold up traffic where a foot path is available, I suspect an arrest and charge of obstruction or disorderly conduct would be inevitable for anyone actually stupid/stubborn enough to do so.

Go and prove your point: walk in the middle of a main road (start from a crossing [safety first]) such that you stop traffic and continue after instructed to leave by the police - do you reckon you won't get arrested?

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

I've been very specific that vehicles are not allowed to travel along pavements from my very first post on this thread.



I regulary see people walking along roads in London holding up traffic perfectly legally, large groups of them quite often.

Funny you should mention that, a couple of days ago I saw a small van driving along the pavement on the wrong side of the road, if you see what I mean. There is a 20ft wide verge on this bit of the road and I guessed he had turned into the wrong drive and could not be bothered to try and get back through the traffic queues to move a few houses down.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Electric mobility scooters?

Pushing the definition of vehicle a bit, how about wheelchairs and pushchairs both being human propelled personal transport devices?

Pedantry aside, would you agree with making the use of pavements by cyclists legal under certain circumstances and within certain limits?

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

And within that post, and since that first post, we've both been quite specific regarding your words of "pavements [are] for pedestrians only", which is a constraint far more reaching than vehicles 'not being allowed to travel along' them.
Why do you remain with a misrepresentation which I've already shown to be irrelevant? Why don't you just answer my simple question?

I find it most interesting that there are people who have tried to use one or two posts within a campaign forum of hundreds of thousands, saying 'one shared space is for one user group' as a means to attack that campaign, then themselves claim another similarly shared space is only for another user group, even though it clearly isn't

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Another thread being brought to its knees by unnecessary pedantry by Steve. We are all fully aware of nthe point the Weep is making even if he phrases it badly.


If you are going to be pedantic be accurate. The section from the entrance to the road is an extension of the driveway not part of the pavement (which is interrupted by the driveway). That is why the drop in the kerb is of legal significance.

Now can we get on with arguing about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Preceisly. A fair few people round my way have simply kocked over their front wall and now drive their car up over the kerb, across the pavement and onto their garden.

Illegal.

Are you saying that dropped area is private property (an 'extension of a driveway', a driveway being private property), even though the council has the responsibility of maintaining it and has the power to made alterations without permission? I don't think so!

The legal significance of a dropped kerb is to allow vehicular access and to prohibit parking across them (PCNs can be issued to offenders). No drop - no access; drop - no parking.

Pavements are usually designed to take the weight of pedestrians. The dropped part of the pavement allowing the crossing is strengthened so it can take the weight of a domestic vehicle. The dropped area is still part of the pavement; hence that part of the pavement becomes a 'shared space'.

Is that accurate enough for you?
Weepej, this should also address your next response (following this post).

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

A dropped kerb is a crossing across a public footpath:



http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndComm ... G_10026223

I'm reading here that the crossing is part of the highway.

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/kerbdropping

So it remains that cars are not allowed to drive on pavements, but pedestrians are allowed to walk ont he highway.

That is correct, but what part of that shows it isn't part of the pavement? Are you going to claim it is part of the carriageway? (even though it is behind a kerb)
Are you also going to claim that pedestrian crossings within carriageways aren't actually part of a road?


Guess what, footpaths and footways are also (means of) highways.
http://mle.ncalt.com/MLE/data/PL_LGL_NL ... /D4217.asp



So a vehicle can drive over the pavement once the crossing is in place.


Clearly this is off topic (entirely my own fault). I'm going to do a thread split if no one objects.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Personaly I don't have a problem whith any pedantry on the thread so far, it does seem there is a good deal of confusion over what is/is not allowed and it could do with some clearing up.



So does that mean you are allowed to drive across them? Cool, now I can take a shortcut across the pavement into the supermarket car park Is there some angle that applies so you know whether you are driving along or across? or are you only driving across if at exactly 90 degrees?



How does that work if as above it's only illegal to drive along pavements? Now wev'e gone from being illegal to drive along to being illegal to drive along and across!

But hold on .....



Ahhh I see it's no longer a pavement now it's a driveway extension ....

So you won't have any problems with me driving my quad bike round and round in circles within the confines of my driveway extension and I wouldn't be doing anything illegal as it's no longer a pavement? I for one wouldn't have much confidence the local BiB would take that view!!


I beleive that electric mobility scooters are allowed to drive on the pavement so long as they are restricted to 4mph, faster ones are not and have to drive on the road with insurance/tax etc.

_________________
You only need two tools - WD40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD40. If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape. :0)

I agree (either way).
Perhaps another angle is determining what a kerb is designed for.
There are many Google gov.uk search instances that more or less state: 'The kerb separates the pavement from the road'; a dropped kerb is still a kerb.

Also, for arguments sake let's say the dropped area really isn't a pavement, it is reasonable for pedestrians to look left/right each time they 'step off' the pavement? No! It's still a pavement.

Ask anyone standing on such an area if they're on the pavement or a carriageway, what do you think they'll say?

Also again, there are plenty of other dropped kerbs which don't connect driveways: plain and tactile; aren't these still pavements?

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

That really annoys me when nice law-abiding folk like me have paid £600+ to have it done officially.

No I am not saying that. Do stop making straw men. I am saying that the dropped area is part of the road not part of the pavement and that is what gives car drivers a legal right to use it without giving them the right to drive on a pavement

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown