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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 08:28 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8319630.stm
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Target pavement cyclists, say MPs
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MPs were told only a small number of cyclists were irresponsible

The government should do more to target "irresponsible behaviour" by cyclists - particularly when they break traffic laws, a committee of MPs has said.

There was some confusion about road laws, including the fact that it is illegal to cycle on pavements, the Public Accounts Committee said.

It was responding to a National Audit Office report on road safety.

The Department for Transport said it could devise new rules but had to be satisfied police could enforce them.

In its response to the committee, the department said enforcing cycling offences "was typically not high on the agenda of most police forces due to competing demands on their time".

It also pointed out anti-social cyclists represent only a small number of total cyclists.

Others 'feel unsafe'

The committee's report was a response to a wide ranging NAO report on road safety published in May which suggested Britain was still behind other countries in tackling road safety for child pedestrians.

It said pedestrians and cyclists were particularly vulnerable - largely because they had little physical protection from crashes. In 2007 more than 30,000 pedestrians and 16,000 cyclists were injured, while 646 and 136 respectively were killed on Britain's roads.

MPs pointed out that there was a "perception that anti-social behaviour of some cyclists increases their risks and makes other road users feel unsafe".


The only time I have been knocked down in my life was by a cyclist going like a bat out of hell outside the House of Commons
David Curry MP

The committee urges the government to "devise education, training and publicity measures to target such anti-social behaviour, particularly when it breaks traffic laws".

While deaths and injuries of cyclists had fallen overall since the mid 1990s, they had risen by 11% since 2004, the committee said.

During the committee's hearings two MPs raised concerns about "anti-social behaviour" of some cyclists and the fact there was some confusion among the public and the police about legal requirements on them.

'Not trivial'

Committee member and Tory MP David Curry said some were "irresponsible and arrogant road users" and said many people believed they took no notice of red lights and believed traffic cones were "not for them".

"The only time I have been knocked down in my life was by a cyclist going like a bat out of hell outside the House of Commons," he said.

"We seem to regard cyclists as living in some sort of superior moral category when they actually do not have any."

Labour member Geraldine Smith added that sometimes irresponsible cycling was "dismissed as something trivial" but it was a common complaint at meetings in her constituency.

She said one constituent had been seriously injured and there appeared to be "very little" the police could do, adding: "A police superintendent was at this forum with me and he said that it was legal to cycle on pavements."

Richard Devereux, the top civil servant at the Department for Transport, confirmed it was illegal to cycle on pavements but said it was wrong to assume that all cyclists were dangerous.

"There are, without doubt, some elements of the cycling community who are in that position and there are equally, I imagine, rather more people who are far more dangerous drivers as well," he said.

I rather suspect that the increase in casualties since 2004 is because there are more cyclists on the road after that date as a result of government urging people to take to two wheels?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 22:55 
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Certain people on this forum have made the point that whether safe or not breaking the speed limit is against the law, is there any reason why the same logic should not be applied to cycling on the pavement?

I do not and never have bicycled on the pavement next to a road though I have been known to do so across a footbridge or along a footpath in a park for instance, i.e. no road to use. I did however ride my tricycle up and down the pavement when I was three years old and as a teenager was once told off by a policeman for sitting on my bike outside a friends front door while waiting for him to come out. Even though I think riding on the pavement is really only for young children I think it would be somewhat petty to start prosecuting cyclists using them if they are not likely to cause any danger to pedestrians. Providing a cyclist keeps their speed down to about walking pace, is prepared to stop if necessary for pedestrians and takes great care passing pedestrians especially from behind then using the pavement is reasonable. An adult or teenager riding on the pavement should certainly understand that the burden of safety lies with them and should be willing to accept the majority of the responsibility for any incident as they are operating outside normal parameters.

I see nothing wrong with going after people cycling or driving dangerously, however spitefully prosecuting an outdated law against a majority of safe users just to spite an irresponsible minority of irresponsible people is counter-productive.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 01:52 
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Given the state of some of the so called cycle paths in Chelmsford I can see why I (and others) ride on the pavement - a painted strip in the gutter and potholes does not a cycle path make.

Traffic Island that push cyclists and drivers into very close proximity.

I could go on...

However, one thing that I bare in mind is that if a pedestrian is about I can do more damage to him than they me and as such I need to show care and consideration for thier safety.

I second Toltec's post.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 15:21 
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You won't be surprised that I agree with Toltec. And it isn't just about safety. One A road which I often travel is relatively narrow and a single cyclist in fron of a commercil vehicle can cause a considerable tailback of traffic. Alongside this road is a rarely frequented footpath. By cycing on there I not only protect my own safety but ensure the free flow of motor vehicles on the road. But of course I wathc carefully for pedestrians and yield to them

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 15:50 
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I dont have a beef with people cycling on the pavement if they do so with care, concideration and lights during darkness. They are on the pedestrians turf and should give way to pedestrians.

I do find the ferral youth a big problem hopping on and off the pavement without lights. When driving I use a disproportionately high amount of my mental/visual resourses keeping track of them compared with legitamate pedestrians. I do fear that one day I will be watching them and fail to observe an elderly chap crossing the road in a dark coat.

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“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:16 
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toltec wrote:
I see nothing wrong with going after people cycling or driving dangerously, however spitefully prosecuting an outdated law against a majority of safe users just to spite an irresponsible minority of irresponsible people is counter-productive.

Of course to enable anything of this nature more well trained police are required on the streets to enable application of the Law appropriately.

For one to say that he thought it was legal shows just how under trained and badly informed this Policeman was ! I hope he is terribly ashamed of himself - what a faux-pas !

- Regarding the above press article - sound to me like they have been listening to my comments about recent Bournemouth cyclists ! Without trying to 'crow' but I said pretty similar but (in my opinion), better phrased and better understood opinions and requirements.
ALL road users need to show courtesy and a thorough understanding of requirements of others ideally, in all areas of public access, obeying sensible & intelligent rules. where encouragement has been given to authorities to apply intelligent and well considered rules, in the first place.
If we aim high and impart good education, then it raises everyone's abilities and knowledge, so they can apply growing and better skills where only a small minority disobey. The 'problem' at the moment is that the boundaries are so blurred even the Police (some) don't know what the rules are - so it has gone too far in the wrong direction.
This government / local authority 'control' patterns of separating cycle lanes (other than where great danger especially exists) makes each road user group, start to believe they are possibly incompetent, (creating a potential under-confident attitude), all the way up to having the false importance, to (have to) mix with the rest of the 'group', - this creates segregation, and follows that many 'effects' that enable ongoing bad behaviours.
Whilst a few cyclist might be sensible in taking an empty walk way to avoid heavy fast flowing traffic and many will sympathise, it is still breaking the Law, but if sensible an allowance might be given by well trained officers.
By 'raising the bar' and grow public understanding of the Legal boundaries it tells everyone the 'within reason' that is acceptable. Outside of this they will be in trouble when seen and apprehended by the local BIB. Ever more call for more BIB.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 14:20 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
You won't be surprised that I agree with Toltec. And it isn't just about safety. One A road which I often travel is relatively narrow and a single cyclist in fron of a commercil vehicle can cause a considerable tailback of traffic. Alongside this road is a rarely frequented footpath. By cycing on there I not only protect my own safety but ensure the free flow of motor vehicles on the road. But of course I wathc carefully for pedestrians and yield to them


You should be walking the cycle of course.

Campaign to have the pavement designated shared use by all means, but it remains illegal to ride on a pavement that's for pedestrians only (even though the prosecution guidelines state people should never really be prosecuted for it).


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 23:11 
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So is the answer to attempt looking at rules that might allow for some cycling on pavements or pathways ....

Do we see the need, with some busy narrow roads to allow other possible available pathways, the safer and more sensible route for other small vulnerable traffic ?
Does this allow far greater numbers to then flood onto the pavements / pathways ?
No one wants an increase in ped/cyclists incidents, but I can see some sense to some very responsible use.
Perhaps it might be useful in helping to create a joint between two groups of road users society?
Of course nothing is better than better roads and engineering.
I think it important to not bow to bad rules for the sake of it, but is there a case here ?
Roads are narrow in many areas, and some pavements remain unused.

I like the fact that in many areas old drove roads and former rail lines are being turned into beautiful cycle - people routes.

As an aside to : I also wonder if all bikes should be sold with lights as standard too ...

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 23:13 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
So is the answer to attempt looking at rules that might allow for some cycling on pavements or pathways ....


There are already rules, I use pavements to cycle on nearly every day, they are marked as shared use for pedestrians and cyclists.

It remains illegal for me to cycle on pavements that are not marked, but more and more are becoming shared use.

Have to say though that I'd normally choose the road over a shared use pavement any day.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 23:36 
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So are the already indicated cycle paths & joint pavement use clouding the issue ... ?

Some cyclists might see one previous pavement only route, that is now a cycle lane too, no different from the empty pavement that is not marked as a cycle path ?
I agree that the rule is totally clear - not cycles on pavements,
The rules state that cycles are not to ride on pavements (rule HA 1835 sect 72 & R(S)A 1984, sect 129)
but, in reality parents allow children to 'cycle' on the pavement ... but when all out with the family we do see family groups all on the road learning how to interact with the traffic.
I wonder at what age parents think that children should no longer be on the pavement, but the road - what seems right ?
Since children learn certain social and physical and sociological progress at certain ages so perhaps the medical profession would 'know' the approximate 'right' age/s for this to happen ?

As another interesting aside, a young horse rider is expected to be on the road and never the pavement with people ever at all - unless empty and on a busy road where it would be considered very sensible and totally the best & safest option. Often an experienced horse would be on the outer road side and also why some riders refuse to not move from the double up - but you can never tell drivers this - also an increase in horse rider high visibility vests do have better messages on these days. (Young inexperienced horses are also always on the inside too.)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 23:44 
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Having had a bike hit me in the goolies as it came flying round a blind corner (on the pavement), I would most definitely say 'Keep the bastards off the pavement!!!!!!!!!' :hoppingmad: :hoppingmad: :hoppingmad:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 00:21 
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Oh dear, dear, dear, - was this earlier today ! You sound 'sore'. :shock:
I hope s/he were ashamed !
If a pavement only then they are in the wrong.
I suppose you could sue for physical assault ?

I wonder what attributes are reviewed to enable the Local Authorities to approve changing a pavement, into adding the cycle path onto it ?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 13:47 
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The off topic posts have been split into this new thread.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 17:02 
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It has to be said that much of the resentment against cyclists stems from the intensive, heavy-handed enforcement of traffic laws to which motorists have been subjected over the past two decades, while cyclists seem to get away with all kinds of things scot-free.

"If we have to suffer all this crap, you should have to as well."

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 17:43 
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PeterE wrote:
It has to be said that much of the resentment against cyclists stems from the intensive, heavy-handed enforcement of traffic laws to which motorists have been subjected over the past two decades, while cyclists seem to get away with all kinds of things scot-free.

"If we have to suffer all this crap, you should have to as well."


This has got to be irony, right?

Stand at any road junction for an hour and count the number of drivers running the red light, on the phone, speeding, tailgating, using the wrong lane, failing to signal, blocking the junction, blocking the pedestrian crossing etc etc.

Also count the number of cyclists violating the law.

Which number do you think will be higher?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 17:52 
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JBr wrote:
Which number do you think will be higher?

Umm, if you read my post again, the implication was that motorists shouldn't be treated in such a draconian manner, not that cyclists should be :roll:

But which category of road users do you think, proportionately, will show more red light violations?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 18:17 
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PeterE wrote:
while cyclists seem to get away with all kinds of things scot-free.



Ah right, and people driving cars don't.

:roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 19:00 
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weepej wrote:
PeterE wrote:
while cyclists seem to get away with all kinds of things scot-free.



Ah right, and people driving cars don't.

:roll:

Do you want to tell us the relative detection and prosecution rates, for the rates of the offences?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 19:19 
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JBr wrote:
PeterE wrote:
It has to be said that much of the resentment against cyclists stems from the intensive, heavy-handed enforcement of traffic laws to which motorists have been subjected over the past two decades, while cyclists seem to get away with all kinds of things scot-free.

"If we have to suffer all this crap, you should have to as well."


This has got to be irony, right?

Stand at any road junction for an hour and count the number of drivers running the red light, on the phone, speeding, tailgating, using the wrong lane, failing to signal, blocking the junction, blocking the pedestrian crossing etc etc.

Also count the number of cyclists violating the law.

Which number do you think will be higher?


You missed -

riding up the inside, riding across pedestrian crossings, hopping on and off the pavement, not indicating clearly and not bothering to use lights. :twisted:

On the whole though just because one group of road users gets away with something does not justify the another doing it. What I take from Peter's post is a comment on the politics of envy rather than a dig at cyclists.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 19:30 
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Steve wrote:
Do you want to tell us the relative detection and prosecution rates, for the rates of the offences?



I would imagine it's far far lower, naturally transgressing a law on a cycle is not nearly as reckless as transgressing the same law whilst in a car, so frankly, people drivign cars should come under far higher scruntiy than those riding pushbikes.

I am in a bit of a quandry when I see a cyclist being pulled over for red light jumping or pavment riding though. Half of me thinks good, I give a little mental applause when I ride past the situation, the other half wonders why police are wasting their time when it would be far better spent in detecting people driving badly in cars.


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