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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 20:38 
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I can't believe this hasn't already been posted; it's not like she doesn't have form.

Harriet Harman ‘crashed car while on mobile and drove off without leaving details’

Harriet Harman is facing police questions over allegations that she was involved in a car accident while speaking on her mobile phone.

The deputy Labour leader is also alleged to have driven away from the scene of the accident in Dulwich, southeast London, on July 3 without handing over her insurance or car registration details. Police are investigating whether she was driving without due care and attention.

Witnesses told a newspaper that the MP for Camberwell and Peckham stopped briefly after the crash, but did not follow the procedure laid down in law to leave details. It was claimed that she said: “I’m Harriet Harman — you know where you can get hold of me.”

A police source told The Mail on Sunday that Ms Harman’s car collided with a vehicle parked on the side of the road, causing a loud crash that was heard by several bystanders. She stopped her car, understood to be a red Ford Fiesta, in the road — the point that witnesses allege she ended her phone conversation.

The accident happened near the border of Ms Harman’s South London constituency on the same day that she was visiting the scene of a tower-block fire in Camberwell in which six people were killed.

Ms Harman’s spokeswoman denied yesterday that the Leader of the Commons had done anything wrong, but refused to be drawn into the details. Downing Street refused to say whether or not her job was at risk.

Ministers convicted of traffic offences have previously had to give up their ministerial careers. Patrick Nicholls resigned in 1990 when he was caught drink-driving during the Conservative Party conference. He was fined £250 and banned for a year.

It is illegal to drive in Britain while talking on a handheld mobile phone. The offence carries an automatic three-point penalty and fixed £60 fine.

Under the 1988 Road Traffic Act, any driver involved in a collision with another vehicle must leave contact details, as well as their vehicle’s registration number. Any driver unable to leave contact details must report the accident to police within seven days.

Careless driving is punishable by a fine of up to £2,500 and between three and nine penalty points. Ms Harman’s alleged offence, of driving away without leaving her insurance details, carries a possible six-month jail term.

Scotland Yard sources said yesterday that she would receive no special treatment. She had been due to see police last week, but this was delayed by the Labour Party conference.

Ms Harman was fined £400 and banned from driving for a week in 2003 after she was convicted of driving at 99mph on a motorway. Two years ago she was issued with a £60 fixed penalty notice for driving at 50mph in a 40mph zone on the A14 in Suffolk.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said: “We are investigating a minor traffic collision in Dulwich on July 3 and are in the process of taking statements from all parties concerned.”

A report is understood to have been sent to the London Traffic Unit’s division in Sidcup, which is responsible for processing motoring offences.

A spokeswoman for Ms Harman said: “[She] strongly refutes the allegations but is co-operating fully with the police.”

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 22:14 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8369371.stm

Looks like she's going to be prosecuted!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 13:17 
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I wonder what if anything she has done to promote or develop towards her last time very interesting quote of :
Harriot Harman wrote:
"I don't believe that I was causing the slightest danger," said Mrs Harman. "There is far too much speeding enforcement these days and yet deaths and serious injuries are not falling. I am just the latest in a long, long line of people to have been hauled into court for driving perfectly safely. This is the catalyst I need to end the current madness and return to the days of intelligent roads policing."

Clearly she had not learned from her prior two experiences, or she made a typical inattention mistake and then crashed due to distraction (phone). I wonder how she will wriggle out of this one ...

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 13:24 
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It does beg the question whether she is able to judge what is safe or not if she hit a parked car while yapping on the phone....people assume what they do is safe until something untoward occurs. Without a near miss or an accident you could just be lucky.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 13:47 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
I wonder what if anything she has done to promote or develop towards her last time very interesting quote of :
Harriot Harman wrote:
"I don't believe that I was causing the slightest danger," said Mrs Harman. "There is far too much speeding enforcement these days and yet deaths and serious injuries are not falling. I am just the latest in a long, long line of people to have been hauled into court for driving perfectly safely. This is the catalyst I need to end the current madness and return to the days of intelligent roads policing."

Clearly she had not learned from her prior two experiences, or she made a typical inattention mistake and then crashed due to distraction (phone). I wonder how she will wriggle out of this one ...


Is this a serious quote? I obviously had an incorrect perception of her.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 23:59 
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Stil like to think of her as Harriet Harperson :D :D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 00:29 
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Or "Harriet Harperdaughter"

;)

mb


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 01:22 
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malcolmw wrote:
Is this a serious quote? I obviously had an incorrect perception of her.

Yes it came from her previous incident ... !

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 18:58 
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Sky News wrote:
Harriet Harman Fined £350 On Driving Charge

Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman has been fined £350 after pleading guilty to driving without due care and attention.

City of Westminster Magistrates' Court heard a second charge of driving while using a mobile phone had been withdrawn.

Ms Harman was fined and ordered to pay £75 costs and a victim surcharge of £15.

She was also given three points on her driving licence.

The MP for Camberwell and Peckham was at the centre of a police inquiry after she was involved in a minor collision with a parked car.

The 59-year-old minister did not attend today's hearing.

Instead she was at a Cabinet meeting in nearby Downing Street.

A spokeswoman for the minister said: "Ms Harman fully accepts the court's judgement.

"Ms Harman is pleased that the potential charges of leaving the scene of an accident without exchanging particulars and failing to report an accident to the police have been dropped.

"Ms Harman is pleased that it has been established that this was not a 'hit and run' accident as portrayed in some media reports.

"It was a parking incident and no damage was done."

The case is particularly embarrassing for Ms Harman as she is a QC, Privy Council member and former Solicitor General.

Ms Harman already has six penalty points on her licence after being caught twice speeding in a 30mph zone.


She would have had a totting ban if the "mobile phone" claim hadn't been mysteriously withdrawn. :scratchchin:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 23:06 
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Harriot Harman wrote:
"I don't believe that I was causing the slightest danger," said Mrs Harman. "There is far too much speeding enforcement these days and yet deaths and serious injuries are not falling. I am just the latest in a long, long line of people to have been hauled into court for driving perfectly safely. This is the catalyst I need to end the current madness and return to the days of intelligent roads policing."

Obviously this ruled her out of being in the running for road safety minister .So she decided that she'd better do a Ladyman ,if she was to be considered for the job . :D :D

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 21:46 
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Steve wrote:
She would have had a totting ban if the "mobile phone" claim hadn't been mysteriously withdrawn. :scratchchin:
When somebody is sentenced for 2 or more motoring offences at the same time, they only get one lot of points. Normal practice is to impose points for the most serious offence and to endorse the licence with the other offence(s) so that they flag up on future occasions.

Had the CPS charged the phone offence as well as the due care, it would not have resulted in any more points. If they had charged the fail to stop, or the fail to report, things might have been very different. The guide is 5 or 6 points for the most minor of circumstances.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 21:59 
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Ah yes, I forgot that. Thanks Fisherman

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 22:08 
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fisherman wrote:
Steve wrote:
She would have had a totting ban if the "mobile phone" claim hadn't been mysteriously withdrawn. :scratchchin:
When somebody is sentenced for 2 or more motoring offences at the same time, they only get one lot of points. Normal practice is to impose points for the most serious offence and to endorse the licence with the other offence(s) so that they flag up on future occasions.

Had the CPS charged the phone offence as well as the due care, it would not have resulted in any more points. If they had charged the fail to stop, or the fail to report, things might have been very different. The guide is 5 or 6 points for the most minor of circumstances.


My sisters Jazz( Janis) and Julia who are both now serving magistrates have read this comment and advised me that they concur with your post. (The girls fine us over smiley abuses and comments which they consider "outrageous" :lol:

I admit to feeling "hot under my collar" :yikes: when my kid sisters told me of their plans.. but they are concerned folk and as straight as the proverbial dice in reality of life.

OK .. personally.. I think Harman got off lightly given she pranged a car in decent visibility here. (Based on reqading the inital press reports which may not be 100% accurate :popcorn: given her position in the pecking order :popcorn:

I think it depends on the case as presented and argued as to actual outcome for the the person accused.. and also dependent on the Clerk of of the ZCourt who advises the magistrates on points of law per my sisters here.. and I go off anecdotes here and not known fact .. which is again at odds with my own training ... :popcorn: But I have no cause to doubt Jazz and Julia .., my own sisters whom I;ve known since birth... and grown up with and love as their brother.

I know.. large families who care for each other are perhaps OTT or "beyond credibility" in a dysfunctional family UK society.. as far as keyboard singleton warriors are concerned :lol: but large caring families still exist and we ain't the only ones either. Fact of life. :lol:

But yes :yesyes: We tend to punish for the most serious and ignore the lesser crime or incorporate within the harder tariff.

I think I am pehaps harder line in real life and I know IG and his kith and kind would love the system to "chuck away the key" on some of the persons these relatives have confided in sheer exhausted/ downflated defeat over the years to us all :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 21:41 
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fisherman wrote:
...If they had charged the fail to stop, or the fail to report, things might have been very different. The guide is 5 or 6 points for the most minor of circumstances.


I thought you only had to report an accident where an injury had occurred?

Many years ago, when I was a student, someone pulled out of a side road in front of me and we collided. nobody was hurt but I was very ken to report it (just in case I got done for failing to report". The copper on the desk told me I needn't have bothered (although, come to think of it, we (the other party and I) had exchanged addresses & insurance details, so maybe that's why)??


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 08:15 
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Mole. HC286. You have to stop and exchange details if property is damaged or report to the police within 24 hrs.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 09:27 
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She ought to be grateful she was not "tried" at a Swiss court

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 01:19 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Mole. HC286. You have to stop and exchange details if property is damaged or report to the police within 24 hrs.


TA!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 01:21 
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jomukuk wrote:
She ought to be grateful she was not "tried" at a Swiss court


Perhaps annual income rather than net worth might be a better means test. Anyway, with the state of my savings, it would only be like me getting fined £150 or so! There's a lot to be said for it, I guess!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 22:43 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
You have to stop and exchange details if property is damaged or report to the police within 24 hrs.

If only it were that simple.


Quote:
Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) Part VII
170: Duties in case of accident
Duty of driver to stop, report accident and give information or documents.
(1) This section applies in a case where, owing to the presence of a Mechanically Propelled Vehicle on a road or other public place, an accident occurs by which -
(a) personal injury is caused to a person other than the driver of that vehicle, or
(b) damage is caused -
(i) to a vehicle other than that mechanically propelled vehicle or a trailer drawn by that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(ii) to an animal other than an animal in or on that mechanically propelled vehicle or a trailer drawn by that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(iii) to any other property constructed on, fixed to, growing in or otherwise forming part of the land on which the road in question is situated or land adjacent to such land.
(2) The driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle must stop and, if required to do so by any person having reasonable grounds for so requiring, give his name and address and also the name and address of the owner and the identification marks of the vehicle.
(3) If for any reason the driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle does not give his name and address under subsection (2) above, he must report the accident.
(4) A person who fails to comply with subsection (2) or (3) above is guilty of an offence.
(5) If, in a case where this section applies by virtue of subsection (1)(a) above, the driver of the vehicle does not at the time of the accident produce such a certificate of insurance or security, or other evidence, as is mentioned in section 165(2)(a) of this Act -
(a) to a constable, or
(b) to some person who, having reasonable grounds for so doing, has required him to produce it,
the driver must report the accident and produce such a certificate or other evidence.
This subsection does not apply to the driver of an invalid carriage.
(6) To comply with a duty under this section to report an accident or to produce such a certificate of insurance or security, or other evidence, as is mentioned in section 165(2)(a) of this Act, the driver -
(a) must do so at a police station or to a constable, and
(b) must do so as soon as is reasonably practicable and, in any case, within twenty-four hours of the occurrence of the accident.
(7) A person who fails to comply with a duty under subsection (5) above is guilty of an offence, but he shall not be convicted by reason only of a failure to produce a certificate or other evidence if, within seven days after the occurrence of the accident, the certificate or other evidence is produced at a police station that was specified by him at the time when the accident was reported.
(8) In this section "animal" means horse, cattle, ass, mule, sheep, pig, goat or dog.



The usual bits that bring people to court are
(1) (a) when they fail to realise that their own passenger triggers this requirement, even in a single vehicle RTC.
(1) (b) (111) when they fail to realise that damaging a sign or a tree triggers this requirement
(2) when they fail to realise that a passer by who is not involved with the RTC and may not even have seen it take place can trigger this requirement IF they request the details to assist an injured party.
This includes someone who is not physically injured but is too shaken up to cope.
(6) (b) when they fail to realise that they must report as soon as reasonably practicable. There is no leeway to wait for (say) 23 hours if you could report earlier. The requirement to report within 24 hours is absolute, even if its not in any way practicable although the CPS don't prosecute, as not in the public interest, if you were unable to report due to injuries received.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 09:29 
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fisherman wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
You have to stop and exchange details if property is damaged or report to the police within 24 hrs.

If only it were that simple..


The Highway code makes it appear so.

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