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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:22 
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Currently we are using 52.126 Gigawatts.
454 Megawatts from North Ireland and 1.694 Gigawatts from France.
Lowest use was at about 0500 this morning at about 35 Gigawatts.
The maximum available in the UK is about 56 Gigawatts.
In ten years 40% of that capacity (+-) will have been shut down.

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 19:15 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
What are your reservations about compressed air energy storage...


It will cause sea levels to rise. We're told that this is a bad thing...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 21:16 
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jomukuk wrote:
Currently we are using 52.126 Gigawatts.
454 Megawatts from North Ireland and 1.694 Gigawatts from France.
Lowest use was at about 0500 this morning at about 35 Gigawatts.
The maximum available in the UK is about 56 Gigawatts.
In ten years 40% of that capacity (+-) will have been shut down.


Ta. Is that just electrical power or the total energy consumption for all forms of energy? (e.g. gas for domestic use rather than power stations)?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 21:55 
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Electricity @ http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Data/Realtime/Demand/demand24.htm

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 22:34 
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Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
What are your reservations about compressed air energy storage, Steve? Apart from the inefficiency?

There is also the issue of capacity. I doubt even 1 such balloon is enough for one household during a summer's night, let alone a winter's one.


Do you have numbers for this or are you speculating?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 22:36 
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RobinXe wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
What are your reservations about compressed air energy storage...


It will cause sea levels to rise. We're told that this is a bad thing...


To what extent will it cause sea levels to rise?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 22:53 
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The compressed air idea (as far as it goes) is quite a good one. Since the presure is maintained by the presure of the water at depth then the presure will remain constant as the reserve is charged/depleted (unlike compressed air stored in, say, cylinders or old coal mines etc) which will make the compressed air much easier to store and use efiiciently

Also, the airbags dont need to have "strength" as such, merly the ability to expand and contract .

However, the amount of energy stored/M^3 is not likly to be great. At a guess we would be looking at about 1Mj/M^3 about the same amount of energy as is contained in just over a tablespoonfull of petrol!

Allowing for conversion losses, I would be surprised if you could get away with anything better than 10M^3/KWhr

The charging efficiency will be poor too, a lot of the pumping work done by the compressors will go to heat, (Though it might be possible to store this for future recovery)

Storing any "Usefull" amount of energy will require an ENOURMOUS array of air bags! (The long pipe runs and complex valving in which would reduce efficiency even further)

I could see something like this as a "Load leveler" used in conjunction with a wave systm (for instance) but not really as a form of large scale "Pumped storage" like Dinorwig

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 23:23 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
What are your reservations about compressed air energy storage, Steve? Apart from the inefficiency?

There is also the issue of capacity. I doubt even 1 such balloon is enough for one household during a summer's night, let alone a winter's one.


Do you have numbers for this or are you speculating?

I never found any numbers, so I have only my intuition to go on.
A few KWH, multiplied by the inefficiency factor you rightly mentioned (and don't forget: thermal losses results with pressure losses), from balloons, doesn't really seem like a plausible large-scale solution to me.

dcbwhaley wrote:
RobinXe wrote:
It will cause sea levels to rise. We're told that this is a bad thing...

To what extent will it cause sea levels to rise?

I did a quick crunch, it won't be much of a rise (maybe about 1mm for a globally effective solution).
I would be more worried about the resource wasted on it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 00:13 
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jomukuk wrote:


Ta, interesting link - but am I missing something? It seemed to be about 50GW in the day and about 37-ish at night in the last 24 hours???


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 01:18 
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Seems about right.
At about 0530 it was about 34GW and at 1800 about 55GW.
At this time (0016z) it is about 39.949GW (well, exactly !)

?

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 04:10 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
RobinXe wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
What are your reservations about compressed air energy storage...


It will cause sea levels to rise. We're told that this is a bad thing...


To what extent will it cause sea levels to rise?


By an amount equal to the volume of compressed air, divided by the surface area of the oceans. How much air are you planning to store underwater?

If I had to take a punt I'd say infinitely more than anthropogenic CO2.

Perhaps we could just store compressed carbon dioxide underwater, it would be like burying nuclear waste; after all, CO2 is much more harmful to the planet, right?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 18:50 
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    Dr. Andrew A. Lacis
    Affiliation: National Aeronautics and Space Administration
    NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies
    2880 Broadway
    New York, NY 10025 USA

    E-mail: Andrew.A.Lacis@nasa.gov
    Phone: (212) 678-5595

    Education:

    * B.A., Physics, 1963, University of Iowa
    * M.S., Astronomy, 1964, University of Iowa
    * Ph.D., Physics, 1970, University of Iowa

Quote:
There is no scientific merit to be found in the Executive Summary. The presentation sounds like something put together by Greenpeace activists and their legal department. The points being made are made arbitrarily with legal sounding caveats without having established any foundation or basis in fact. The Executive Summary seems to be a political statement that is only designed to annoy greenhouse skeptics. Wasn't the IPCC Assessment Report intended to be a scientific document that would merit solid backing from the climate science community - instead of forcing many climate scientists into having to agree with greenhouse skeptic criticisms that this is indeed a report with a clear and obvious political agenda. Attribution can not happen until understanding has been clearly demonstrated. Once the facts of climate change have been established and understood, attribution will become self-evident to all. The Executive Summary as it stands is beyond redemption and should simply be deleted.


Writing about the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report, chapter 9.

In HERE

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 09:08 
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I always like the idea of the 'wave machine' that produced 2GW and was big (sea production) but smaller units inshore, plus no moving outside parts unless you wanted a tiny bit extra from a wind turbine ! (barely worth it though). I detest the viral wind farms sprouting up all over the Highlands - they have 170 farms plans - twits. Moving the Nat Grid with £M's total waste of funds !

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 21:20 
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This http://www.nybooks.com/articles/21494 is the conclusion of a book review by Freeman Dyson FRS.


Quote:
. Howard Dalton, spokesman for the British government, is the most dogmatic. His final paragraph begins:
It is the firm view of the United Kingdom that climate change constitutes a major threat to the environment and human society, that urgent action is needed now across the world to avert that threat, and that the developed world needs to show leadership in tackling climate change.
The United Kingdom has made up its mind and takes the view that any individuals who disagree with government policy should be ignored. This dogmatic tone is also adopted by the Royal Society, the British equivalent of the US National Academy of Sciences. The Royal Society recently published a pamphlet addressed to the general public with the title "Climate Change Controversies: A Simple Guide." The pamphlet says: This is not intended to provide exhaustive answers to every contentious argument that has been put forward by those who seek to distort and undermine the science of climate change and deny the seriousness of the potential consequences of global warming.

In other words, if you disagree with the majority opinion about global warming, you are an enemy of science. The authors of the pamphlet appear to have forgotten the ancient motto of the Royal Society, Nullius in Verba, which means, "Nobody's word is final."

ll the books that I have seen about the science and economics of global warming, including the two books under review, miss the main point. The main point is religious rather than scientific. There is a worldwide secular religion which we may call environmentalism, holding that we are stewards of the earth, that despoiling the planet with waste products of our luxurious living is a sin, and that the path of righteousness is to live as frugally as possible. The ethics of environmentalism are being taught to children in kindergartens, schools, and colleges all over the world.

Environmentalism has replaced socialism as the leading secular religion. And the ethics of environmentalism are fundamentally sound. Scientists and economists can agree with Buddhist monks and Christian activists that ruthless destruction of natural habitats is evil and careful preservation of birds and butterflies is good. The worldwide community of environmentalists—most of whom are not scientists—holds the moral high ground, and is guiding human societies toward a hopeful future. Environmentalism, as a religion of hope and respect for nature, is here to stay. This is a religion that we can all share, whether or not we believe that global warming is harmful.

Unfortunately, some members of the environmental movement have also adopted as an article of faith the belief that global warming is the greatest threat to the ecology of our planet. That is one reason why the arguments about global warming have become bitter and passionate. Much of the public has come to believe that anyone who is skeptical about the dangers of global warming is an enemy of the environment. The skeptics now have the difficult task of convincing the public that the opposite is true. Many of the skeptics are passionate environmentalists. They are horrified to see the obsession with global warming distracting public attention from what they see as more serious and more immediate dangers to the planet, including problems of nuclear weaponry, environmental degradation, and social injustice. Whether they turn out to be right or wrong, their arguments on these issues deserve to be heard.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 22:01 
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:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I'm reminded of the quote “You may fool all the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 22:08 
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Big Tone wrote:
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I'm reminded of the quote “You may fool all the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”



And ,IMHO, some of the people are waking up to this . :o :o

Interesting bit on Coast tonight ,about high tides (especially spring ones) and the effect of barametric pressure ( as in high suppressing levels).
Have higher levels than normal been taken during times of low pressure ( being cynical ,was this taken into effect )

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 22:28 
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Big Tone wrote:
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I'm reminded of the quote “You may fool all the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”


Before getting too excited it is worth pointing out that Freeman Dyson does believe in AGW though he doesn't think that it is mankind's biggest problem. Ne also has this wonderful idea of creating genetically modified tree which could capture CO2 from the atmosphere.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 22:45 
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Thanks for that link, I read the whole article and enjoyed doing so. I wonder why I am minded to follow the words of one of the most brilliant men of our time rather than the government line.

I would assume he means rather more than a tree that grows quickly, I took him to be suggesting a plant that could lock up carbon in a dense and stable form at a very high rate. He also suggested the production of other useful organic compounds as a means of locking carbon out of the atmosphere. That we are having at least some effect on the climate is not unreasonable, it is the way it is being handled that is so wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 01:16 
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I'm more concerned about the possibility of another glacial period, than about the current interglacial period being extended.
The current gossip is about the planet reaching a "tipping-point", after which things get out-of-hand (as if stopping CO2 emissions would change it anyway (380ppm - 4%) (?)
Nobody seems to be researching reaching a "tipping-point" that drives temperatures down....and don't forget...once glaciation starts it isn't going to stop in a hurry !

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:17 
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Quote:
Howard Dalton, spokesman for the British government, is the most dogmatic. His final paragraph begins:
It is the firm view of the United Kingdom that climate change constitutes a major threat to the environment and human society, that urgent action is needed now across the world to avert that threat, and that the developed world needs to show leadership in tackling climate change.
The United Kingdom has made up its mind and takes the view that any individuals who disagree with government policy should be ignored.

Hmmm...

I'll remember that name: Howard Dalton.

Looks like he would fit in well in, say, North Korea.

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