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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 13:53 
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I have received this interesting topic for discussion from Alan Dale.
Linked Doc Here from IAM
and most interesting Here which I have now started a new thread Here
New for IAM - Rider's Lines Here

Quote:
Editor Alan H Dale with Item TCP 298 REVISED

IT IS A FEW YEARS since I first enjoyed Mike Waite’s original educational video, so I am now delighted to report on its update in the form of a DVD, with an additional 25 minutes of a clear on-the-road commentary and instructions to a group of his students, enabled by improvements in radio communications via the latest headgear as worn by examiners, trainers and students.

Police Advanced Riding Techniques
Taught by MIKE WAITE, ex-Police motorcycle instructor and advanced driver

ONE REMARK by Mike Waite to his civilian advanced-riding students that I particularly like is: “The visual point won’t tell porkies!” Very good indeed, as too much official road safety material is marred by insufficiently thought-out rulings and advice that all too often don’t make enough sense until far more carefully defined.

What I most criticise, is the sheer stupidity of race-track-style driving or riding at speed over blind hill crests and around blind bends — many of them on A-roads, B-roads, ex-B-roads, and C-roads — without the benefit of roads-racing officials to ensure that there is no oncoming traffic or straying animals or whatever. On a high moorland route in 2008, from Skipton to Haworth, Yorkshire, I observed hardly any other driver or rider who had the defensive nous to reduce speed to the extent that they would have been able to stop within the distance they could SEE to be clear of hazards. Something I cannot fathom is the cowardly deafness over this and other vital road-safety issues that seemingly afflicts the so-called Slower Speeds Initiative and the Road Danger Reduction Forum and others of that ilk, too numerous to mention.

I was reminded of this, four years ago, when my wife and I visited the Isle of Skye, in Northwest Scotland, and watched with mixed admiration and disgust as seemingly hundreds of motorcyclists scorched past our modest family car. “They certainly can ride well, but can they STOP?” was my reaction to riders who handled their bikes expertly, but without imagination as to what might be hit around the next blind bend, should their speed be too great, even allowing for maximum safety-vision positioning. Hadn’t they heard of the Boy Scouts’ warning to be prepared for any eventuality? Even proverbial elephants being led around blind bends!

(2)
The visual point
The visual (or vanishing) point is the most important part of cornering, as explained in detail by Mike’s MW Police Advanced Riding Techniques School, based in Templecombe, Somerset, and has everything to do with maximising safer riding as an art form, as closely as possible for civilian riders to the world-respected British Home Office Police Class One of the unfortunately now-diminishing Police Riding and Driving Colleges throughout Great Britain.

The visual point is where the road ahead bends so as to cause the two sides of it to ‘meet’ in the distance, so that one may correctly adjudge the severity of the corner by the rate at which it opens up to afford a clear view around it. Never once did I observe Mike or his group of three students, on an actual live training ride, on his DVD, approach a corner or bend at a speed greater than that needed for maximum safety: if it was a right-hand bend they were positioned as far to their left as safely possible, promptly sacrificing cornering position (and speed) for safety in the case of other hazards appearing before them, or as closely near the central hazard line as suitable for the particular road when nearing a left-hand bend or corner so as to attain maximum vision around it, accelerating out of the bend at the precise moment that it was completely safe to do so.

Great stress is set on Mike’s course for the need always to keep one’s head up so as to acquire long-range vision as to the changing circumstances ahead, while always fully aware of what is happening, or is likely to occur, behind and all around one, with checks in one’s mirrors at least every 10 seconds.

Visual links
These include dead ground and blind summits (already mentioned in my second paragraph), with the addition of safely positioning one’s machine for all occasions, ‘riding wide’ for minor junctions on one’s left and keeping well to the left away from minor junctions on one’s right, and ‘eyeballing’ every driver waiting to join ‘your’ road to ensure he or she has actually seen you.

Overtaking (a mild criticism here)
While thoroughly endorsing Mike’s advice for safer overtaking, that the manoeuvre always should be accomplished as quickly as possible, being fully in accord with Motorcycle Roadcraft, the Police Riders’ Manual (1985), neither the Ministry’s The Motorcycling Manual (1997) nor the Institute of Advanced Motorists’ Pass Your Advanced Motorcycling Test (1997) are responsibly clear about temporarily and very safely indeed breaking the open-road speed limit of 60mph (70mph on dual-carriageways and motorways) while in the act of overtaking in maximum safety.

Indeed, when some years ago I attempted to discuss the problem with IAM HQ, I was very firmly told that the Institute could not countenance temporarily breaking a speed limit in any circumstances, which means that diehards of their persuasion would rather put others and themselves in mortal danger if unforeseen circumstances arise during an otherwise soundly estimated overtaking manoeuvre. Nor is the official view of Police senior officers any more practical and responsible, as they have ignored me whenever I have tried to discuss maximum safety while overtaking.

For many years the Police were infinitely more sensible about it than nowadays, as indeed I overheard (!) when the former IAM Chief Executive, the late Bob Peters, was talking to then IAM motorcycle test examiner Robin Hawes, also a riding and driving instructor for Norfolk Constabulary, when they agreed that it was acceptable for riders (and drivers) temporarily to exceed a speed limit on the open road, if they promptly resumed the signed speed limit having safely overtaken another vehicle. Thirty-five years ago the then chief of Traffic Police for Norfolk, Superintendent Ron Spalding, discussing safer overtaking with me as another member of the Committee of Norfolk Group of Advanced Motorists, stated that no Police officer worth his salt would find fault with any driver who safely broke an open road speed limit, when overtaking, if he or she promptly but smoothly resumed that limit.

(3)
Upping the pace
This means riding or driving at the maximum safe speed on the open road, which should make good sense to any rational person, as inevitably the occasion will arise when it is highly necessary to arrive swiftly safely at a destination for many valid reasons, apart from sheer joy of motorcycling in one of its most exciting forms. (I write as one at the age of 77 who nowadays gains more pleasure from gently quiet-lane riding a 104mpg 2005 Honda Pantheon 125cc 4-stroke scooter, much as I used to ride a bicycle in the halcyon days of friendly 19461950s cycling before the present-day antipathy arose between various kinds of riders, when environmentalism-gone-mad chooses unjustly to favour mostly untrained cyclists against mostly quite decently trained riders of powered two-wheelers.)

General observation of speed limits
Another mild criticism of Mike’s advice. Although never permitting his group of students (in the DVD) to ride less than in maximum safety through villages, I feel he is at odds with not amending a formerly very sensible suggestion not to exceed 40mph while in a 30mph speed limit. In 2006, I understood that not being liable for prosecution meant not exceeding a limit by more than 10% to allow for human error, plus 2mph to allow for errors within most speedometers, thus a permitted 35mph in a 30 limit, whether or not common sense would suggest a safe progression to be 40mph, or 20mph as circumstances, particularly in the vicinity of schools, would permit, if only sanity once again prevailed. [In 2008, however, even the 10% + 2mph commonsense leeway is now gravely in peril of being overwhelmed by moronic tamperers with what still is best in British road safety.]

‘A Biker’s Master Class’
At the outset, Mike Waite advises that professional tuition should be taken before venturing into the higher realms of vastly safer motorcycling. I would add that, with my experience of the excellence provided by the likes of Norfolk Advanced Motorcyclists with their Associate-training preparation for the IAM’s advanced motorcycling defensive riding test, even higher education of the level provided by Mike Waite, not forgetting that other splendid Police-based advanced courses are listed and reported in Bike motorcycling journal, should be the objective of all who truly care.

Mike’s course and DVD are of the finest quality to be expected by those already advanced riders who most responsibly wish to progress to an even greater degree towards the surely ultimate ideal of the Home Office Police Class One. Even the Government’s Driving Standards Agency is making worthwhile steps towards this ideal, but it is a very long haul, not assisted by the almost wholly negative influence of those who will not appreciate safer excellence via Police Roadcraft in any form. I therefore commend the MW Police Advanced Riding Techniques School and DVD to all who intelligently and genuinely care for positive road safety. For course information, please see Mike’s website at http://www.mikewaite.co.uk or email him on mail@mikewaite.co.uk

The DVD may be ordered through Mike’s website by credit card or cheque.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 14:24 
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It would seem that nobody except Mr Dale can bring themselves to say the obvious commonsense that exceeding the posted limit might actually be safer in some circumstances.

More than my job's worth...?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 16:32 
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Quote:
Overtaking (a mild criticism here)
While thoroughly endorsing Mike’s advice for safer overtaking, that the manoeuvre always should be accomplished as quickly as possible, being fully in accord with Motorcycle Roadcraft, the Police Riders’ Manual (1985), neither the Ministry’s The Motorcycling Manual (1997) nor the Institute of Advanced Motorists’ Pass Your Advanced Motorcycling Test (1997) are responsibly clear about temporarily and very safely indeed breaking the open-road speed limit of 60mph (70mph on dual-carriageways and motorways) while in the act of overtaking in maximum safety.

Indeed, when some years ago I attempted to discuss the problem with IAM HQ, I was very firmly told that the Institute could not countenance temporarily breaking a speed limit in any circumstances, which means that diehards of their persuasion would rather put others and themselves in mortal danger if unforeseen circumstances arise during an otherwise soundly estimated overtaking manoeuvre. Nor is the official view of Police senior officers any more practical and responsible, as they have ignored me whenever I have tried to discuss maximum safety while overtaking.


IMO anyone who even considers looking at their speedo while participating in an overtake manouvere is an idiot for not concentrating 100% on the road ahead, the person they are overtaking and the surrounding road conditions.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 23:45 
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I've had to accelerate away from a car's front quarter to avoid being hit by a driver that has decided to change lanes while I'm level with them. Trust me, I'm never looking at my speedo.

[Edit]Obviously I mean during the avoiding manoeuvre. I do look at my speedo at times where I'm not worried about becoming an automotive piñata[/Edit]

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 09:22 
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Quote:


I've had to accelerate away from a car's front quarter to avoid being hit by a driver that has decided to change lanes while I'm level with them.


Exactly but according to the IAM you shouldn't have done that if it meant creeping over the speed limit....idiots!

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 21:35 
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graball wrote:
Quote:


I've had to accelerate away from a car's front quarter to avoid being hit by a driver that has decided to change lanes while I'm level with them.


Exactly but according to the IAM you shouldn't have done that if it meant creeping over the speed limit....idiots!


IMO the car drivers who don't look over their shoulders or in their blind spots are the idiots. But then I'm the worst motorist around; a motorcyclist :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 21:47 
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Quote:
IMO the car drivers who don't look over their shoulders or in their blind spots are the idiots.


I've had this happen to me several times even as a car driver but it's something you always look out for and half expect. The idiots are the people who suggest you should be concentrating on your speedo and not suggesting that it is "the correct thing to do" when you have to break a speed limit to get out of trouble or make a safe overtake. I was always taught that to overtake safely you should GET PAST THE OVERTAKEE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, it's worked for me for over 35 years.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 19:56 
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Quote:
Editor Alan H Dale with Item TCP 298 REVISED

Indeed, when some years ago I attempted to discuss the problem with IAM HQ, I was very firmly told that the Institute could not countenance temporarily breaking a speed limit in any circumstances, which means that diehards of their persuasion would rather put others and themselves in mortal danger if unforeseen circumstances arise during an otherwise soundly estimated overtaking manoeuvre. Nor is the official view of Police senior officers any more practical and responsible, as they have ignored me whenever I have tried to discuss maximum safety while overtaking.



To be fair, neither the IAM nor any Police officer could ever (publically) condone breaking the law - Does Alan Dale or anyone else expect otherwise? And as we all know, speed limits are more to do with compliance than safety.

I know IAM Motorcycle examiners who will advise a candidate under test that "I will not be looking at my speedometer when we overtake". A very neat solution.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 22:28 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Not a biking issue ,but of similar value - I was in a car ,but equally it could be a biker - I'd passed a car in the outside lane( DC) ,and decided that I didn't want to go any faster ,so dropped back into L1- to let the car in L2 pass me ,calculating that at his speed he'd pass me before I needed to get into L2 to pass car in L1. Car in L2 ,then decided to sit on my rear quarter .my decision was then - brake and let it pass ,(if it decided to do so ) ,or change down ,speed up , get clear ,move into L2 and overtake . I chose latter ,and for miles had this idiot follow me in L2( with me in L1) ,till I decided that there was only one course open - I decided that some distance was needed - and that some speed was the only way to do it . I sped up ,after a mile or so lost idiot and returned to limit .

So -I can sympathise with bikers ,when car driver cuts them up - I'm only grateful I was in a car . ( I also now drive looking out for bikes -after all it could be my daughter or my soon to be son in law ).

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 21:31 
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To do with overtaking ...

Why is it that if you are on your bike, pulling away from a dual carriageway roundabout in the outside lane, that the car in front of you, with nothing in front of it for half a mile and nothing inside for a couple of hundred yards, will refuse to pull over and let you continue on your journey?

I can understand them not doing it when you are in a car as there are so many but even the smallest of bikes will accelerate up to speed much quicker than most cars.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 14:18 
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I clicked on the link - Where did they get their annual mileage figures from. They seem completely at odds with other research. I suspect that the bikes over 500cc have a very wide standard deviation, ranging from sports bikes with less than 1,500 per year to tourers who do 8-9k per year.

I think once you look at KSI by type rather than engine size - you get a clearer picture that there is no link to crash risk and engine size. That has certainly been the view of other reports anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 19:21 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
Quote:
Editor Alan H Dale with Item TCP 298 REVISED

Indeed, when some years ago I attempted to discuss the problem with IAM HQ, I was very firmly told that the Institute could not countenance temporarily breaking a speed limit in any circumstances, which means that diehards of their persuasion would rather put others and themselves in mortal danger if unforeseen circumstances arise during an otherwise soundly estimated overtaking manoeuvre. Nor is the official view of Police senior officers any more practical and responsible, as they have ignored me whenever I have tried to discuss maximum safety while overtaking.



To be fair, neither the IAM nor any Police officer could ever (publically) condone breaking the law - Does Alan Dale or anyone else expect otherwise? And as we all know, speed limits are more to do with compliance than safety.

I know IAM Motorcycle examiners who will advise a candidate under test that "I will not be looking at my speedometer when we overtake". A very neat solution.


I hit 90 (ish, based on experience, 600cc full beans for a second or two from 40 to whatever, I didn't look) during my IAM test. Didn't stop the examiner (a serving policeman) commending my riding. The overtake happened here http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=51.328252,0.670381&spn=0.017216,0.042057&z=15&layer=c&cbll=51.328225,0.670202&panoid=V8ybfkAU73r5l4-Nu2P8_Q&cbp=12,228.24,,0,9.04 although it was december, so the lack of foliage made better visability and the house on the left was not built.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 19:23 
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diy wrote:
I clicked on the link - Where did they get their annual mileage figures from. They seem completely at odds with other research. I suspect that the bikes over 500cc have a very wide standard deviation, ranging from sports bikes with less than 1,500 per year to tourers who do 8-9k per year.

I think once you look at KSI by type rather than engine size - you get a clearer picture that there is no link to crash risk and engine size. That has certainly been the view of other reports anyway.


Tourers that do 9000 per year? I do 1.5 times than that just for work. Stick 4 or 5 long trips for fun and lots of weekends and I do 20k miles a year


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