Safe Speed Forums

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

MotorRail was all very well - but it never paid for the rails and upkeep!
Red Star could never quite get the hang of bringing parcels to your door, or collecting them.

Once a railway rolls up to every supermarket and shop, then it might make sense!

Posting from a rural county, just yards from the rail line from Oxenholme to Windermere - a major tourist destination, and seeing first hand the amount of maintenance carried out, I think I can safely say the idea is a no brainer - the quicker it is shelved the better!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

The inherent schizophrenia of rail enthusiasts is exposed by this.

They want to go ahead with the High Speed line to Birmingham which, by definition, does not stop on the way. They also want all local communities to be served by rail which is, inevitably, slow.

You don't need to be a genius to see that the utility and utilisation of a road is far superior to rail. On a high speed line you might get two trains an hour with, say 1000 passengers. Build a road and it will be in constant use, take a lot more people and not require a union approved driver to operate.

Still, they won't get in , will they?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Not inevitably. Our local rail service to the city is, even allowing for the walk at each end, substantially faster than by road. And, allowing for the cost of parking, much cheaper. You don't need to be a genius to see that a single, professionally controlled, vehicle on a reserved track is going to work better than several thousand small vehicles, conned by incompetent amateurs, moving randomly on a shared track.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Nice idea -but to re open all those miles of abandoned rail track ,you need construction expertise .The guys doing the maintenance -all brought in house are all NR staff .All the work on construction /upgrading projects has been done by firms with the expertise /equipment and staff ,and their staff retained as permanant staff on the payments from ongoing contracts .So what's happening to those firms -they're getting rid of staff wholesale ,with very few being employed by NR-some of those firms are going under .
Ernest you mentioned Motor rail and red star .

Motor rail -back in the 60's- the little village I lived in ( a thriving west coast fishing port & tourist resort ) had one of the worst access roads -can't remember why they closed Motor rail ,but slowly but surely rail freight of fish ( and this port at that time exceeded Aberdeen in landings) was cut back ,and road freight increased ( only way out) to the point where there was no demand for rail fish freight -so the service was stopped .

Red Star - long time ago I worked at GEC on the PCM production /repair facility .We got stuff returned from users -like BR and other large Comms users for repair .What struck me was that all BR stuff came in by any other carrier BUT Red Star - always wondered why

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I'm amazed that ANY aspiring future government is contemplating such expenditure with the current mess we're in!

I've nothing against railways - quite fond of trains in fact, but I would have thought that pretty much any non-essential expenditure would have to be canned for the next 5 years at least, until we've got ourselves back in the black.

This crowd:

http://www.keswickrailway.com/index.html

have been trying to get the track between Keswick and the West Coast main line at Penrith reinstated for some years now. No idea how far they've got. I often get the train from Penrith to London for meetings, that's nearly an hour's drive from Whitehaven. If I'm going to get in my car at 05.00 to get the 05.57 from Penrith to London, I'm sure as hell not going to only drive as far as Keswick! Once I'm in my car and the engine has warmed up, I'd take a LOT of persuading to park it up in Keswick and get out into the cold again to get another train that would take me to Penrith for 05.57 (especially in the winter)! I'd just do the other 20 miles in the car. Now if they were to connect it to Whitehaven or Workington, that would be a BIT better, but who the hell is going to lay on a train so that I can get to Penrith for 05.57!?

What I WOULD like to see is the government subsidising parking at stations. Very often I can JUST about make the case for doing a jorney by train if I book far enough ahead - only to have any potential savings wiped out by the £8 just to park at the station for a day!

That's not going to happen is it.
The "government" (us) subsidises the railways to the tune of 50% of each fare.
What they ain't telling you is that in time you will have no choice BUT to use the railways....cars will be running on petrol at £15/litre and roads will be closed....and electricity for your home will be at £1.00/KWH to pay for the 100% subsidy for rail-electric.
Once the greens get in (and lib/dem) you will be euthanased at 65 and your estate will be seized to pay for the wind turbines at the bottom of the hill !

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

What hasn't yet come to light is the scale of the redundancies/unemployment caused by Network Rail's decision to defer contracts - I would have thought with the financial crisis it would be cheaper for the Gov't to induce Network Rail to offer work to those firms prepared to tender for it , than have several thousand ( at the least) , turning up at the Job-centres ,with little hope of employment and being forced to claim .
What was suspected was that those after being on the dole would return to firms at poorer employment conditions .What more likely will happen is that they will get jobs with social hours ( not working every weekend /bank holiday ) at lower wages and ask if the extra is really worth it .
The firms that contracted to Network Rail in the past mostly had a permanent core staff whose competencies were kept up to date and their hours regulated so as not to exceed safe hours .For example - a twelve hour shift meant twelve hours from depot to depot ,not as is now happening (using sub contract labour) of twelve hours on track .In the past -if a shift was twelve hours on track - one man was nominated as driver of the vehicle and took no part in the on track work -when his mates were on track, he rested .Not now -no track work -no pay .So when Network Rail decide to come down hard on a MOP falling asleep at the wheel and causing a rail tragedy - I'm waiting for subbies to either have a road accident or cause a rail /road one .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Whilst I am a great fan of railways I have severe doubts about these very high speed links. For that kind of speed and distance aeroplanes seem to be more appropriate and use a lot less built infrastructure. The fact that you have a longer check in time at an air port is given as an advantage for the train but it will only need one terrorist incident and high speed trains will be subject to the same security as aeroplanes



Agree wholeheartedly. But why should it be a government subsidy? Just force Railtrack to offer free parking to rail travellers.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

If you did this, Network Rail would increase network access charges to the TOCs to cover the cost. All rail travellers would then pay via ticket prices for the few who leave their cars at the station. If you mean that the Government should pay Network rail for the car parks then this would be a subsidy.

At least those using the car parks pay for the privilege at the moment.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

But free parking would encourage people such as Mole to use the train more often and increase the ToC's income, allowing them to offer lower prices to everyone.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Most people don't cost their cars properly and have no idea what they are actually costing to run, they normally only factor in the cost of the fuel when comparing journey prices.

If the station is with walking distance of a station and the destination is also with walking distance, then the train is probably quite a good bet, if you are travelling alone.But take a few mates with you and the car is going to be better.

I have looked into doing the trip to my family by train and it really is a non starter. I'd need a taxi ride at both ends, which would be £15 each, each way and then I would be marooned when I got there. I normally do the trip off peak, this is when quite a bit of maintenance gets done, so would need to keep that in mind and there are less trains too.

The worst journey time in the car is 5 hours, I'd need to budget for that on the train. Then there is the spector of one Mr Bob Crowe....

My employer, not renowned for their generosity, pay 25p per mile so that is the figure I use

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Not even close. If he/they think they can run a reliable car for 25p him/them let them supply it.

Just to add, you and I that are running old motors that have finished depreciating might be able to do it, IF your car is reliable and an indy garage is looking after it. But 25p is not going to look too good if a big repair comes your way or the car needs replacing.

And then there is his opposite number in TESSA -a staff organisation renown for being very anti confrontational - so the question must be asked ,what have Network Rail management done to get RMT and Tessa to join forces .Then again , the leaders of both are employed ,FULL TIME to look after their members --I can't say anything about the bosses at network rail on the management side ,but I do know that those in charge of the renewals /project side are all contracted via an American organisation ,where massive bonuses are the order of the day .Apart from not having their members conditions downgraded ,both sets wish to keep their members safe at work -something that is not highlighted by the reporting of the current dispute -where top brass want the safety provisions set for staff to be set by local managers rather than the bloke in charge of on track safety ( who is legally responsible for their safety ,and in the event of injury ends up with a custodial sentence ).Usually the person in charge of safety is the junior member ,leaving the more technical qualified blokes to deal with the fault etc .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

But I don't see it as a privilege! Using my car for a journey is a "privilege" - I'm trying to do the environment and my fellow road users a favour here by reducing the amount of traffic on the M6 / M1 / central London. If the government wants to encourage this, I'd have thought that (a) providing sufficient parking and (b) providing it free) would be a relatively small outlay that would go a long way towards incentivising the use of the train. Let's face it, there's no way I can get to Carlisle or Penrith (each about 40 miles away) for 05.57 (or 05.45 from Carlisle) using public transport 'cause there ain't any at that time of the morning round here! (Of course, the government looses out on about £50 of fuel duty (plus the VAT on it, servicing, tyres etc) if I DON'T take my car to London...)

I keep pretty meticulous records of everything I spend on my cars. My last three have averaged out at just under 5p/mile in maintenance and depreciation. I'm then looking at about 20p/mile for fuel, insurance and road tax, so a total of about 25p/mile. That's using a fair few second hand parts and doing all the work myself.

Oh dear, Mole, that won't make you popular on these forums. Using your car for even the shortest journey, is an inalienable right

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Keeping a £3000 car for three or four years I reckon on: £800 pa in depreciation; £100 pa in lost interest on the capital; £150 each on tax and insurance and £3000 on servicing. That is £1500 a year before the car moves. At 10K miles a year that is 15p plus another 15p for fuel plus an unpredictable cost for additional wear and tear.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Well having come over all "religious" on the other thread, I thought my credibility was pretty much down the bog anyway now, so "what the hell"...!

I'm as bad a petrolhead as the next chap, but there are a few journeys where it just makes sense for me to use the train. I couldn't do London and back plus a day's work - not living in North West Cumbria, so I'd need a night out. That tips the scales in favour of the train. I'll be just outside Northampton next week, and that will be much trickier - will probably take the car. Being able to work on the train is a bonus, but the seats are so cramped in "cattle class" and using the laptop is tricky if I'm at a shared table. The real problem comes if I want to go anywhere with a family of 5 at a sensible time of day. That's where the car absolutely slaughters the train.