Safe Speed Forums

Accepted absolutely. I wasn't worried about what you actually do. But I felt the point was worth clarification - it looked as though you regarded all weekend bikers as responsible for the crashes. It was too easy to misunderstand that all weekend bikers would fall into your 'prat' group.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Thanks Paul

Problem with the problem weekend bikers is that we are often at a loss as to how to deal with them effectively. We have tried education, but those taking up our offers are the sensible 80%, so still the others crash. We have tried flooding the area with police and picking up on the minor infringements in a kind of NIMBYesque enforcement method. They simply go to more remote places or other force areas to crash. Most of our traffic cops are bikers (I'm not ), so they are generally quite sympathetic to their sport, and can generally identify the 'prat', but we can't nanny them all round their circuit.

Our best policeman is crap weather. In 2004 we had 4 biker fatalities compared to 9 in 2003. I believe this was largely due to the poor weekend weather in 2004.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Sorry, not having that

I only ride my bike on weekends, and at no time do i ride it like a prat.

I do understand the high numbers of born again bikers, who pass their direct access coarse and go and jump on an R1.

Whether you ride 2 days a week or 7 days a week, if you have the attitude of prat & no experiance they are likely to be involved in a smash.



You should target bikers & drivers of any other vehicle based on their driving standard, not based on what day of the week they are driving.

How about marking farmers a target for spreading Mud over the roads, which now seems to be acceptable.

I believed Friday was statistically the highest accident day in the calender, overall.

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Steve

What sort of driver would you regard as the "prat" then?

Obviously if you get some numpty driving through a remote village at "stupid miles per hour" then he (or she) has to be taught a lesson in basic safety.

But how about this for a scenario.......

Todat I was coming back from Portsmouth down the A3....came out of a roundabout to find myself facing a 1 mile straight stretch of road that was empty....wound the throttle against the stop and took it to 145 (which didn't take very long at all) whereby I then rolled off back to 75 - 80mph and maintained that speed until my exit which was approximately a half mile away by the time I was back down to 80 ish.

Now if you had seen that (and be honest now), would you have been chomping at the bit to have my license off of me or would that have been a "flea in the ear" ?

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

‘Prats’ to me are those who drive their vehicle inconsiderately. By this I mean being inconsiderate to those other road users and residents in areas through which they drive, and a conscious or unconscious lack of consideration for the additional risk posed to themselves and others. It would also include those with ridiculously small number plates, or those who like to indicate their presence through villages by revving their throaty (illegal) exhaust.

Circus stunts performed on public roads would also fulfil the definition.

To answer your particular point.
I've always said that I do not like to use "Just do it! Its the law" as my only relevant response when dealing with someone. However, there does need to be an element of respect for the laws of the road, and 145mph is stretching that to an extreme.

I have responded to complaints about bikers speeding excessively on public roads. The usual complaint is that they are making excessive noise. Also that they do this while on roads used by locals who feel frustrated that there are certain days where ‘their roads’ are given over to bikers.

If I had actually managed to record your speed, the likely scenario would be that I would have been sent to that area with laser to respond to that particular kind of activity. It'd be as a result of a complaint as described above. If you then ride into my well laid trap, then I'm afraid you would be left to explain to the magistrates exactly why you feel you should keep your licence .

If, as was more likely, I had witnessed the action in passing, then I would speak with you, and point out the additional risk caused by this manoeuvre, and the need to keep a sense of discipline on the road and respect for the laws governing use of vehicles on the road. I would gauge your reaction before deciding on course of action, either Sec3RTA or warning, but I'd want to know without doubt that this activity was only considered because it was absolutely clear of other traffic, and that mitigation would have to be an unprompted response from yourself.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

First class response, Ian.

Gixxer - if you were unlucky enough to be prosecuted for 145 mph, you might be looking not just to save your licence but your freedom as well. Back to the prats though - people in rural areas on bikers' favourite roads like the Bilsdale TT (B1257) want things like a 40 mph limit and speed cameras because of groups of prats as well individuals who think they are Joey Dunlop or David Jefferies and could well be joining them in the after-life!
You'll know how dangerous riding in a group is, no doubt, with the tail-enders taking ridiculous riskd in order to keep up. I've never understood the desire for having a loud pipe as I stick in ear plugs to muffle the noise of a legal, standard pipe. The only possible reason for a small number plate is to attempt to avoid detection. However wheelies on some bikes with a very high power to weight ratio are a fact of life, even though illegal.
Ian H - very good point about the weather. I recall North Yorkshire police claiming that Bikesafe and increased policing had reduced fatalities from 2003 to 2004 but there is no doubt in my mind that the vastly increased number of dry, warm and sunny days throughout 2003 from March to October was the main reason.
I don't suppose you'll agree with me but a lot of serious accidents to incompetent and/ or inexperienced bikers involve running out of road because they either can't "read" the severity of bends (using the vanishing point) or when travelling too fast for the conditions fix their eyes on what they might hit instead of fixing their eyes on where they want to go and leaning over a bit more.

NSL single carriageways are the most dangerous roads.

I have never understood why the speed limit on these roads is 60mph while on many 3-lane dual-carriageways with grade-separated junctions the speed limit is 50mph (like the A406, which also has a 40mph limit in parts of the Western section, and also sections of the A40 near London).

I don't drive on these roads frequently enough to comment fully (there aren't that many in London). I do know that on the occasions I have done, if you don't know the road you don't know the bends (one such road that is in London, the A411 between the A41 and A5, has an enormous bend), that a lot of the time you are being slowed down by just one vehicle and that is always a sentiment to just want to overtake it (which is a dangerous manoeuvre as it involves crossing to the opposite carriageway).

Where you sound like you might cause me a problem is if you are turning out in a "give way" situation and miss multiple chances by being over-cautious.

Yes, the one size fits all solution does not work.

However this can also be over corrected, I have seen some single carriageways which were 60 nsl, with certain stretches being really only suitable for 40 mph. They then change the limit on the entire road, even though a large stretch could easily be safe at a 60 NSL.

I do believe we have a changing culture, where before drivers drove at a speed that was governed by the road conditions and layout. It feels to me anyway, that drivers seem to believe that as long as they are at or below the posted speed limit they are driving safely.

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Steve

Oh yes, i purchased a bike before, which had been fitted with an after market can. The bike sounded superb, that soon changed after 4 hours in the saddle.

I could not wait to get the standard can back on, really was little in terms of performance differance. Big differance to a relaxed ride though, maybe i am just getting old. Nothing worse than lying in bed and hearing that roar flying down your local streets, come the summer either, or maybe i am just getting old



Disagree with you on that one, they really destroy the look of the back of a m/cycle. We go out and buy a stunning bike, only to stick a square lump on the back, horrible, completly horrible.

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Steve

I imagine that the low limit bits of the A406 (between Hangar Lane and Brent Cross?) and A40 were because of the proximity of housing to the road, often without any barriers IIRC. Maybe there's another reason, but because of that I've always felt that the limits are about right on the North Circ and so-so on the A40 - I can't remember where it goes to NSL but I remember thinking it could probably be further east. Certainly by the time I used to get west of Greenford the only thing that prevented me going faster was the volume of traffic. The A3 is another one. The Kingston bypass bit used to be NSL until about 5-6 years ago, then they dropped it to 50. At the time I thought that was a stupid limit for a 3 lane dual carriageway with grade separated junctions and barriers down most of both sides. Since then I've had to join from one of the little at grade side roads that are easy to forget about when you're not actually there, and was relieved the traffic wasn't doing 70. It all depends on what else is around the road I think. I can think of some other 50mph dual carriageways that used to be NSL and weren't particularly dangerous, and have NSL single carrigeway roads joining them. Slowing down on the road desgined to let you drive faster - how much sense does that make?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

But as we see, the speed limits are seen as targets, for example you talk about the skilled drivers who can manage the bendy NSL road at 60mph, particularly those who know the road well and know all its hazards, and the earlier posts have then been referring to those drivers who find 45-50mph a safer speed on such a road being accused of "slowing down" the other drivers who feel they have a divine right to do 60mph on it because that's the speed limit.

I did notice that in Belgium the speed limits would change more regularly to suit the stretch of road at the time, but in the UK they take the most dangerous spot and then make the whole road the limit due at that point.

As for the A40 Westbound, once you pass the Hanger Lane Gyratory this carriageway is not built up (unlike the other direction where there are some houses and a church and you are approaching a major junction and might justify the 40mph limit). Most drivers speed up to 50mph which is a perfectly safe speed Westbound.

As you approach the junction with B452 Argyll Road, the speed limit goes up to 50mph, before the junction, and including the built-up slip-road. Totally nonsensical.

During the busier times of day the 50mph limit up to the Target Roundabout junction (even though the A40 passes underneath it) is not unreasonable as there is a heavy volume of traffic on that road (and the high frequency of junctions means frequent lane changing) but in the middle of the night, it would be perfectly safe to go at least 60mph and probably 70mph (which used to be the limit) but they don't have variable speed limits, of course.

I'd also be interested to know why we rarely see 60mph limits on dual carriageways. They are generally either 50 or 70.

As a matter of interest, can someone please enlighten me?

Despite living in Hertfordshire for four years and enjoying many trips to our delightful capital, I don't recall an occasion when I actually experienced the pleasures of visiting Hanger Lane, nor by inference it's infamous gyratory either.

So WTF is a "gyratory"? The mental image it conjurs up is of a section of road mounted on giant vibrating springs, such that it lurches suggestively from side to side. If this is the case, then I would tentatively proffer that if accidents are a problem then tinkering with the speed limit seems unlikely to yield a solution, whereas stopping the road from moving would be infinitely more effective...

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

In simple terms, a "gyratory" is nothing more than a very large roundabout.

In the case of the infamous "Hanger Lane Gyratory", that is nothing more than a "free for all" in reality.

I have often pondered the thought that L drivers should be made to negotiate the Hanger Lane gyratory as part of their test...if they come out the other side unscathed then they should be given their full license immediately.......if they f*ck up in any way, well.......back to the drawing board I guess.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten it's mostly fields by the westbound carriageway. That raises a point though. Is there any practical reason why speed limits have to be the same on both sides of a dual carriageway if the hazards vary from one side to the other? I can think of a couple of places where a lower limit makes sense on one carriageway but is ridiculously low on the other. I suppose the argument would be that it could cause confusion for drivers unfamiliar with the road if they went one way with an NSL and had to deal with 50 on the way back, but if it's properly signed I don't think that's a real problem. The alternative is too high a limit on one side or too low a limit on the other, or trying to meet in the middle which probably will probably be unsatisfactory for everyone.

Does anybody know of a dual carriageway that actually has different limits on each carriageway? The closest I can think of is the London end of the M4 where for a few miles it's 50 eastbound and 70 westbound, but with the bus lane it's sort of a special case.

I think the A316 heading west from Twickenham does this as well. Influence of the Mad Red One or has it been like that for years?

I wouldn't be surprised if more NSL dual carriageways have 60 limits applied in the not too distant future. The A31 is now 60 along the length of the Hog's Back, and for the life of me I can't think why. On windy days there can be some quite impressive crosswinds and it's prone to getting very foggy up there sometimes, but in those conditions 60 is still way too fast and really little better than 70 IMO. In clear, still air 70 is perfectly safe. What are they hoping to gain?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

There are a few scattered around the country, for example a section of the A50 approaching the M1 at Junction 24 is 50 eastbound but 70 westbound. Also there's a section of the M60 near Junction 25 at Bredbury where it goes round a tight bend that is 50 clockwise but 70 anticlockwise. See this thread for a lengthy discussion of the issue.

The bus lane section of the M4 had its speed limit raised again to 60 a couple of years back.


The authorities do seem to be keen to take them straight down from 70 to 50 where in some cases 60 would seem more reasonable to recognise specific hazards. Two examples of 60s that spring to mind are the Runcorn Expressway system and the A34 between Newcastle-under-Lyme and Stafford.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Shows how long I've been avoiding it.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I don't have the delights of driving in the London area very often, usually only en route to France, but I was amazed that the A3 from the M25 direction into London is 50 with most traffic doing more than this except past the cameras which seem to be sited on down grades. Then there is the M4 from Hammersmith towards Heathrow which is an unbelievable 40 mph - I was the only driver doing 40 as I have no idea where the cameras are (if any) and there is no point in finding out for 1 trip in a few years.
NSL roads - it's all very well knowing the road "like the back of your hand" but can you stop in the distance you can see to be clear? It's the agricultural machines which will catch you out.

Park Lane in London (A4202 I think) is 40mph Northbound but only 30mph Southbound. The Northbound carriageway has the park on the side and fewer junctions while the Southbound carriageway is built-up.

The only thing that can catch you out on that road is if you are driving in the right hand lane, which becomes a right-turn only lane into Brook Street. (You can also do a U-turn if there's no way out and you don't want to pay the congestion charge).

You must have me confused with someone else



you will find it was more a point of the drivers staying 10 mph below, even though it was safe to do 60 mph



Some other parts of the EU also operate 2 speed limits on the same stretch of road, one limit for good conditions and a lower limit for poor conditions.



70 nsl used to be the norm for dual in non built up areas, and 60 in built up areas. I seem to be finding this limit is coming down to 50 or 40 all over the place, which has nothing to do with the speed cameras they are putting in

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Steve