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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 17:48 
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BBC.co.uk wrote:
A biker was caught driving at 150mph on a Devon road after being filmed by a speed measuring device so accurate it is used by Nasa, a court was told.

Oliver Marriott, 21, from Saltash, was stopped by police on the A38 near Plymouth in December 2008, Plymouth Crown Court heard.

A traffic officer told the jury he was convinced there would be an accident.

Mr Marriott denies dangerous driving, claiming the speed device produced a false reading.

The jury were shown video which they were told was of Mr Marriott, a pasty factory worker, on his green 636cc Kawasaki ZX motorcycle.

They were told traffic enforcement officer Pc David Williams had to use his specialist training as a police marksman in order to line up the speed measuring device on the motorbike's number plate long enough to get a reading.

'Fastest vehicle'

Pc Williams said: "I looked through the lens and when he came into view I pressed the trigger and recorded a speed of 150mph at a distance of 265m.

"As he approached a van... I thought he was going to collide with the rear of the vehicle.

"In 13 years as a traffic officer it was the fastest vehicle I have ever recorded."

Mr Marriott admitted being the bike's rider when he was stopped by police, but said he had only been driving at around 90mph.

He claimed the police equipment was calibrated wrongly or produced a false reading.

But Steven Langdon, a retired police officer, told the court that the device used to record Mr Marriott's speed, known as a Speedscope, was also used by Nasa to dock its space stations.

He said the Speedscope in question was calibrated in the correct way and gave accurate readings up to a distance of 1,000m.

The trial continues.

He apparently had a near miss according to other reports, which wouldn't be surprising if the reading was correct.

Attachment:
150mph biker.JPG
150mph biker.JPG [ 10.24 KiB | Viewed 26806 times ]

The claim of a false reading should be easy to confirm/deny from that video. Has anyone know where to find it?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 18:55 
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Quote:
They were told traffic enforcement officer Pc David Williams had to use his specialist training as a police marksman in order to line up the speed measuring device on the motorbike's number plate long enough to get a reading.


I thought that motorbikes no longer had number plates at the front and yet it seems to suggest that he took the speed reading as the biker approached him???

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 19:17 
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graball wrote:
I thought that motorbikes no longer had number plates at the front and yet it seems to suggest that he took the speed reading as the biker approached him???

I don't know if you can see the photo within my post. It shows the reading was taken as the biker was receding - there's no "TIMEOUT" message displayed, hence that photo still is practically immediately after the reading was taken.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 19:35 
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Try this link for a video

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Mo ... ticle.html

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 20:23 
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Thanks very much Graball.

A quick and simple analysis using parallel lines from the bike to the lane divier markers (which is a valid approach as I found no measurable rotation of the camera throughout the timeframes of interest) shows the biker crossed 2.4 - 2.5 marker repeats (these repeating every 9 meters; click for 'traffic signs manual'), in the same 0.32 seconds (16NRs) when the gun was taking the measurement.
(yes the gun actually takes a bit longer, I used the wrong frame for the start of the measurement and couldn’t be bothered to correct it - this error had no impact on my own speed deduction, or the relevance of it).

Below is an animated gif showing pan-corrected photos. Click on the image to view all of it.

Attachment:
150.gif [322.07 KiB]
Downloaded 2687 times

Below is a close up of how 2.4 markers was arrived at. The green and red lines are as per the animated gif:

Attachment:
2.4 2x.JPG [34.37 KiB]
Downloaded 2112 times

I reckon the repeat distance is 11 pixels for each 9m marker at the point of interest. The green line is 6 pixels from the top marker, and 5 pixels from the next one down. For me that's 2+ (5/11) = 2.45 markers

59NR12, to 59NR28 = (28-12) * 2 / 100 = 0.32s

This yields: 2.4[2.5] * 9 / (0.32) * (3600/1609.3) = 151 [157] mph.

As a secondary check, for a period of slightly over 2 seconds before the biker's brake lights illuminated (the gun measurement was within this time period), the biker crossed 15.0 markers in (2 seconds + 4NRs = 2.08 seconds).
Below is an animated gif showing pan-corrected photos. Click on the image to view all of it.

Attachment:
145.gif [361.85 KiB]
Downloaded 2675 times

This translates to 15.0 * 9 / 2.08 * (3600/1609.3) = 145mph.
(yes it is a bit lower, but the biker would have already eased off in anticipation of the braking).

There is no way in the world that speed was 90mph :nono:
IMO, the gun gave a correct speed reading and there's nothing to suggest there could have been any error.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 00:16 
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PC Williams wrote:
Pc Williams said: "I looked through the lens and when he came into view I pressed the trigger and recorded a speed of 150mph at a distance of 265m.

Interesting his 'prior opinion' is at best the 'sound of the bike' ... can that 'count' ?

Steve if there is an error of 5mph and, as you say a small perhaps insignificant difference, unless that shows a more fundamental error ...?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 01:24 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Interesting his 'prior opinion' is at best the 'sound of the bike' ... can that 'count' ?

I don't think so, but the sight of the bike whizzing past much faster than anything he has ever seen would be a bit of a giveaway; the sound is what made him look. The reading was taken afterwards.

SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Steve if there is an error of 5mph and, as you say a small perhaps insignificant difference, unless that shows a more fundamental error ...?

Not really. All measurements will have some level of uncertainty, mine won't be any different. Assuming the references are correct (and I've just checked the repeat distance of the markers along that stretch to be very accurate), I very much doubt the first deduction would be in error by any more than 10%, let alone the 67% needed for the 150 from 90.
The second deduction would have a substantially reduced uncertainties (measurement discrepancies become less significant with a greater/longer sample set).

That biker was hoofing it and I reckon he's trying for a "Newton" hearing - an unwise path to tread IMO.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 13:39 
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A sanity check:

I reckon the small car at the end of the procession in lane 1 travelled ~5 markers from 58NR40 to 00NR32 (46 frames, 1.84 seconds). That yields 5 * 9 / 1.84 * (3600/1609.3) = 55mph.

A genuine 55 in L1 (speedo indicated 58-59), at the tail end of a procession, where only one driver of those within that procession spotting the camera van, or the camera sign, would slow the rest, seems very reasonable to me. This strongly suggests those deductions aren't greatly wrong.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 21:58 
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A Streetview link showing the exact position of the camera.

For the curious (and those who can stand it) I've given some technical arguments within this PH thread.


Edited to add:
It has become apparent to me that folks don't believe the link I gave is for the correct location - it really is correct.

The Google View is only 1x zoom, meaning it has roughly the same perspective as typical eyes.
The camera used to nab the biker is at least 60x telephoto. Therefore, objects in the background will appear soooooooooooooo much larger and relatively close up; objects that appear to be close in the video clip could actually be really, really far away and may not even be visible on the Street View view (such as the camera/NSL sign). Don't be caught out with the apparent small gaps between vehicles, they are actually much longer than they appear.

As proof absolute:

Here is the camera/NSL sign, 945m (0.6 miles) away (and you can see the bridge rails in the video clip)

Here is the radio mast, 2300m (1.4 miles) away.

Here is the lay by.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 09:06 
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Quote:
But Steven Langdon, a retired police officer, told the court that the device used to record Mr Marriott's speed, known as a Speedscope, was also used by Nasa to dock its space stations.


That is a very curious justification. Space docking takes place at very low speeds - inches per second rather than hundreds of miles per hour. I would expect completely different instruments.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:07 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Quote:
But Steven Langdon, a retired police officer, told the court that the device used to record Mr Marriott's speed, known as a Speedscope, was also used by Nasa to dock its space stations.


That is a very curious justification. Space docking takes place at very low speeds - inches per second rather than hundreds of miles per hour. I would expect completely different instruments.

Surely only a slight change of software will allow the same hardware to be used for such purposes? Lidar is Lidar afterall?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:15 
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Steve wrote:
Surely only a slight change of software will allow the same hardware to be used for such purposes? Lidar is Lidar afterall?


The same hardware- yes. But if it has been reprogrammed it is no longer the same instrument. An instrument these days is a combination of hardware and software.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:45 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
Surely only a slight change of software will allow the same hardware to be used for such purposes? Lidar is Lidar afterall?


The same hardware- yes. But if it has been reprogrammed it is no longer the same instrument. An instrument these days is a combination of hardware and software.

Yes, but this is apparently only a "device" ;)

I've just realised: if exactly the same "instrument" really was used, there's no point in different software because that generation of speed gun simply won't work at distances of less than 50 feet (limitation of interpolation electronics with limited system clock speeds).
At a mere 1mph, the object will be 30 seconds away when gun becomes useless; at inches per second the gun will be useless for ~10 minutes; so is a resolution of better than +/-1mph really needed anyway?

I suspect dedicated, hard-installed instruments, instead of floating hand-held ones (where distances and small low speed measurements are so easily compromised), are used at the closer ranges. I reckon that generation of lidar gun was only used for long-distance ranging, where closing speeds would have been more than inches per second (500m @ 1inch/sec = 5.5 hours).

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 01:42 
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Having had another look at the length of that section of road and where the camvan was sitting, he must have had a good bit of time to look (their camvans have side windows) to retain onto the receding carriageway I wonder why he took so long ?
Perhaps it's a boring miserable job, and he was lulled into the boredom of it all - bit like the drivers - slow reactions and everyone paying a necessary disproportionate amount of time on 'speed' than driving / riding quality or even tailgating - still they will start auto fines for that next ! ... (I do not condone speeding).

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 17:44 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Having had another look at the length of that section of road and where the camvan was sitting, he must have had a good bit of time to look (their camvans have side windows) to retain onto the receding carriageway I wonder why he took so long ?
Perhaps it's a boring miserable job, and he was lulled into the boredom of it all - bit like the drivers - slow reactions and everyone paying a necessary disproportionate amount of time on 'speed' than driving / riding quality or even tailgating - still they will start auto fines for that next ! ... (I do not condone speeding).



just waiting for a clean shot, if he had pulled the trigger earlier the crosshairs might have been on the crashbarrier, then someone would say a false reading, no doubt PC williams visits this road numerous times since at least 13-12-07 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7840369.stm

different area site code but the road looks the same

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 19:02 
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camera operator wrote:
no doubt PC williams visits this road numerous times since at least 13-12-07 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7840369.stm

different area site code but the road looks the same

Well remembered sir :bow:
That road does indeed look very much the same one. Assuming the same road, a quick analysis with Google Maps puts the operator right at the end of the lay by for that session.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 20:37 
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I've edited my earlier post showing the clips with the measurements I took.

I created these images a few days ago, but I didn't believe this forum was able to host it. You learn something new every day :)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 21:00 
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Yep that makes it all very easy to see - excellent work. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 21:44 
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By request, below are the deduced speeds of other vehicles in L1/L2.
Again, an animated gif showing pan-corrected photos. Click on the image to view all of it.

Attachment:
others.gif [376.12 KiB]
Downloaded 2590 times

58NR10 to 01NR20 = 3.2 seconds (80 frames)
Polo moves 8.6 markers, which yields 8.5 * 9 / 3.2 * (3600/1609.3) = 54mph
Mondeo (?) moves 8.8 markers = 55mph
Scooter moves 8.5 markers = 53mph
Astra (the one being overtaken a bit too closely by the VW) moves slightly more than 8, but difficult to tell with precision (it is further away), maybe ~52mph. Possibly a lane hogger :lol:

The deduced speed of vehicles in L1 is very consistent, suggesting the method used for the deduction is precise/repeatable enough for our needs in this case.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 04:03 
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I suspect NASA uses LASERs to dock space-stations, and this is enough for the comparison to the Sneakyscope.

As far as his "marksman training" goes, I'd be interested to know his stance and support position during the shot; I can hit targets of this size at 300m with a well-balanced assault rifle, but I would struggle to do so with what is effectively a stocked-pistol, do police marksmen train on this weapon type so as to be able to transfer this skill? I don't dispute the fact that the reading in this case seems to be accurate, but I would hate for the courts to develop an established opinion that simply because someone can point one thing accurately they can point anything accurately; I am of marksman standard with a rifle, but I am utterly dire with a pistol outside of 15m!

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