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IanH
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:43 
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Observer wrote:
JT wrote:
I'd have thought that if there were no requirement for the video / photographic evidence to identify the vehicle, that if merely observing and noting down the vehicle registration were sufficient, then the SCPs wouldn't waste their money buying all that expensive video equipment.


IanH wrote:
[heavy irony]Simply progress John[/heavy irony]


(Emphasis added.)

JT's comment exposes the moral illegitimacy of the 'safety partnership' speed enforcement system.

There is no legal requirement but there is the practical requirement that the remote detection/fast-track enforcement system would be simply unsustainable if any significant proportion of 'offenders' were not persuaded that they have no practical alternative course but to plead guiilty (accept the fixed penalty). Faced with video/photographic evidence of the offence and the fact that that they are compelled to provide self-incriminating evidence of driver identity, the overwhelming majority of suspects pay up and accept the points.

There is no other area of criminal law enforcement whose existence depends on the propensity of 'offenders' to accept their guilt.


I'm glad you read the irony Observer, It was written on two fairly unsubtle levels. :wink:

I have litttle problem arguing the moral dilemma surrounding 'easy' detection of offenders.

I have concerns regarding the administrative method of detection, especially in the case of remote speed detection as it is tantamount to self incrimination.

The value and effectiveness of S172TA because of S12 RTOA are being tested at every turn, reducing it to simply another minor offence at court.

But most important of all, what is the benefit?
The deterrent effect caused by the current camera methodology and enforcement strategy is affecting probably 80% of 'normal' drivers.

At best it is deterring them from driving at their safest speed.

At worst it is penalising them for driving at their safest speed.

It's nuts really :roll: .

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tatsust205
 Post subject: plates
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:05 
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been told be a cop freind, who asked around the station, that that if they
saw a car with no plate they would 1) give a warning 2) issue a fine £30
3) a court appearance, thats the official line, but and this is a BIG BUT,
in reallity they ALL wouldnt bother!!! as the paper work is a nightmare!!!
can you belive that!!!
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r11co
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:09 
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IanH wrote:
I have litttle problem arguing the moral dilemma surrounding 'easy' detection of offenders.

I have concerns regarding the administrative method of detection, especially in the case of remote speed detection as it is tantamount to self incrimination.


I would go further and add that it is obtaining a confession (and often an unsafe 'conviction') under duress.

"The computer says no" might be a funny catchphrase, but the blind faith (or commercially pressured) belief that the technology used to obtain alleged evidence is accurate is my biggest worry...
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IanH
 Post subject: Re: plates
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:28 
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tatsust205 wrote:
been told be a cop freind, who asked around the station, that that if they
saw a car with no plate they would 1) give a warning 2) issue a fine £30
3) a court appearance, thats the official line, but and this is a BIG BUT,
in reallity they ALL wouldnt bother!!! as the paper work is a nightmare!!!
can you belive that!!!


Erm...
  1. 2 minutes
  2. 3 minutes
  3. 15 minutes


Maybe you should ask a real trafpol! :wink:

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Gizmo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:42 
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It is obviously not enforced too often. I see "illegal" ones all the time. There were supposed to tighten up the standards when the new regs came in but there are no signs of that happening.

Good luck to em. It dosen't figure on my list of important rules to be enforced. i am more concerned about the 2,366,000 recorded crimes AGAINST motor vehicles. I have had my car screwed on two occasions. Police reaction...here is you incident number for the insurance now p*ss off (para-phrasing!)

Must get your prorities right huh!

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In Gear
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 15:13 
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Gizmo wrote:
It is obviously not enforced too often. I see "illegal" ones all the time. There were supposed to tighten up the standards when the new regs came in but there are no signs of that happening.

Good luck to em. It dosen't figure on my list of important rules to be enforced. i am more concerned about the 2,366,000 recorded crimes AGAINST motor vehicles. I have had my car screwed on two occasions. Police reaction...here is you incident number for the insurance now p*ss off (para-phrasing!)

Must get your prorities right huh!


Usually have list of likely suspects for most crimes - problem is actually proving who committed the crime.

As for the dodgy plates - we normally issue the £30 penalty for non-compliance with the regulations - such as modifying to change the letter of the registration by inappropriate use of screws (i.e. a strategically used black screw which could change 11 to H . Similarly - italic fonts and broken lettering. In theory - could treat this as obscuring - which carries max of £1000 fine. Defence has to show one took reasonable steps to prevent the obscuring.

As far as the stick-on plate on the window is concerned (which is not allowed on the basis that it does not conform to the prescribed British Standard per DVLA :roll: ) - like Ian - we would normally issue a warning in the first instance and take appropriate action should the person fail to comply.

As for the paperwork... :wink: :wink: :lol: So long as it does not get in the way of our doughnut breaks.... :wink:

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tatsust205
 Post subject: plate
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 18:26 
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AS ABOVE!!

maybe you should spend a shift in the south-wales valleys, THEN you might not have time for eating your donuts!!! because youd be too busy
filling in paper work!!!
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Gizmo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 18:34 
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In Gear wrote:
In theory - could treat this as obscuring - which carries max of £1000 fine.


Anybody ever got that one?

No....thought not... :roll:

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botach
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 21:13 
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Gizmo wrote:
In Gear wrote:
In theory - could treat this as obscuring - which carries max of £1000 fine.


Anybody ever got that one?

No....thought not... :roll:


Imagine the papers- "BLIND COP" ETC--"Lets have numberplates in Braille" - and next time a cop says he/she recorded a numberplate defence would fall over laughing and quote this case


Observer wrote:
There is no other area of criminal law enforcement whose existence depends on the propensity of 'offenders' to accept their guilt.

Try this one from beds -(http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005140486,00.html

Detectives are said to have “solved” hundreds of cases by illegally offering lags a string of treats if they confessed.
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botach
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 23:03 
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and i thought a chav no plate was one with a burberry cap n it
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NEIL JEFFREYS
 Post subject: Re: plate
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 19:01 
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tatsust205 wrote:
AS ABOVE!!

maybe you should spend a shift in the south-wales valleys, THEN you might not have time for eating your donuts!!! because youd be too busy
filling in paper work!!!


Paperwork! absolutely right :banghead:

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