Safe Speed Forums

Because the take up was too low.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

There was a fair bit on Radio 4's "Today" programme this morning about it. I must admit, I'm a bit puzzled. My initial reaction is that they're about to repeat the scamera mistakes all over again. One of the things we hate about scameras is that their justification is that speed kills, so reduce speed an people won't get killed as much - which, of course, sounds quite credible at first glance. It seems to me that they're now saying "young people kill, so reduce their presence on the road and we'll see less of it". I think what I'm trying to say is that both approaches are aimed at the SYMPTOMS rather than the PROBLEM. In the same way as I'm sure most people can exceed most speed limits safely most of the time, I reckon that most young people can drive safely at night, most of the time.

Now, I'm further puzzled at the notion that because this is such a "grey" area, the police would be expected to use their discretion in enforcing this law. Nice idea, I'm all for it! But hang on! Haven't we already got laws about not driving like tw@ts?! Instead of creating a new (and very vague) law about "yoofs" not driving in the dark, except in certain circumstances, and expecting "plod" to look out for them and use his discretion when booking them, how about just getting plod to use his discretion and booking them if they're driving like idiots? The problem isn't "yoofs" driing at night, it's "yoofs" driving like idiots - which just tends to happen more at night. If a copper is there to see a "yoof" driving at night, then presumably, he'd also see whether they were driving safely or stupidly at night?!

There is a lot of sense in restricting the type of driving that newly qualified drivers can do. But the real idiotic thing is the idea that after three years of not been allowed to drive at night the driver suddenly, without any additional training, becomes perfectly safe driving in the dark.
After passing the basic test a youngster needs further tuition in night driving, motorway, driving and bad weather driving. I certainly didn't allow my son out on his own in those conditions - I accompanied him until his mother was satisfied that he was competent to go out on his own.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

What you say sounds like responsible parenting - ensuring ones offspring are safe to use the roads before allowing to use them unsupervised.
(my dad did the same with me).

Makes you wonder why today's tuition and test doesn't cater for these things in the first place (and the apparently useful speed awareness courses; if they're so good, then shouldn't they be aimed at the young learners? Why should that remain the sole preserve of the $CPs?, I think I £now why)

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Yep - but major problem coming up - trafplod have been decimated ,and the new austerity government finances will cut boots on the street /in cars even more - in fact they might not be able to afford the cars .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Blogger Dick Puddlecote has summed it up superbly here:

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Peter - says it all - I can remember waaaay back to getting my licence and first car ( and the freedom it gave me )- I for one .like every other member of this site would be a hypocrite to say we should restrict driving on daylight on the grounds of this information .To me as an older person , it sounds like another attempt by the PC brigade to curtail freedom based on some mis information gathered on age .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Looking back at my own youth that is not an entirely reprehensible sentiment.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Driving since 1959 Steve so dont think I qualify as new.

Interestingly, when I learnt to drive in 1959, I had all but one of my lessons at night and the one during the day was a Saturday morning when we had torrential rain.

My ten pence worth.

wmoor has identified that in New Zealand the limit is set by time - i.e 10.00 pm to 5.00 am. NOT the degree of darkness.
That allows for a great number of drivers to gain experience in the dark in winter, but perhaps not in summer.
As I understand it the restrictions proposed allow travelling to work to be exempt.

Pilots have to complete so many hours on different types of plane, or qualify in different weather conditions but there are always one or two who attempt more than they can handle. Drivers would be the same... but we cannot ignore that fatalities in young drivers are too high - and we need to find a successful way of bringing them down long term.
How would that be policed? At an airport you can monitor pilots more closely - but cars are not restricted to a few points of embarkation!

If we could instill a need to drive economically do you would think that could result in less fatalities? Perhaps, but I don't see it happening... but it might in a future generation that were brought up to expect that. We should be EDUCATING new drivers at an early age to expect in the future what we desire now.

I like the idea of a reduced alcohol limit for younger drivers. No carrot - there should not be one in regards to alcohol coupled with inexperience.

As to the limit on passengers, we already have limits here for learners - accompanying driver has to be at least 20 (two years experience?) and I see no reason why this should not be extended to passenger numbers - and I live in a rural area with rubbish public transport!
We already have staged size/power limits too - motorcyclists cannot pass the test on a 125cc then jump on a 1000cc machine the next day - so shouldn't we extend that to young drivers of cars too?

It is more important these days that young drivers get experience of how car handling changes when fully loaded, AND at speed. This should become compulsory IMHO. It is no use telling me that it would add to the expense of learning to drive - I know how much my 18 year old son is being asked for insurance, so there is room for a carrot to go with the extra expense of longer more involved training regimes in the form of reduced premiums for better trained drivers.

In West Cumbria drivers have to drive for nearly an hour to get to a motorway where they can gain experience.
In other areas it could be even longer.
This can only be addressed by ensuring that all drivers HAVE to get that experience - unless you build motorways just to train on!
France has a system in which learning in a controlled environment is encouraged, and their driver training takes place over a far longer period.
You are not allowed on the road under 18 years old except when accompanied.

Personally, I am fed up with being told that better training costs too much for new drivers to afford.
At present many of them are paying in blood for an inferior system, and new drivers pay in insurance premiums which benefit nobody but their shareholders!
Driving is a skill which is often hard won, and brings with it costs and responsibilities. Yes we have less daylight than abroad - but that is no excuse not to address a problem brought about partly by more and more vehicles on the road, and young drivers who grow up in an entirely different culture to that experienced by anyone over 40 - 50 years of age - the "zap" culture where everything seems to have to happen instantly.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Would be awfully complex to enforce a limit on night driving for young people with exceptions for travel to work.

So, take the NZ time restrictions, say 2200-0500 and apply them to a ban on carrying passengers.

So young people can still drive at night, but only solo. Get some experience but without being tempted to show off to mates.

Complete ban doesn't solve the problem that one day they will have to start to drive at night.

Timed restrictions, that will inevitably leads to a new 'rush hour' where drivers are actually tempted to get to their destination in a hurried manner, for the sake of it. Bums if you are caught in a jam.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Hmm, is it young drivers that have more crashes than anybody else, or new drivers?


Moderator message:
Posts have been split off from this post in thread as they are better suited within this one.

You raise a good point there my friend and one where I have some considerable personal experience, with which I won't bore people here for a change.

I think, if my own personal experience is anything to go on, it shows that older folk will get it wrong sometimes but not like the 'madness of youth', as I always call it. And insurance companies seem to agree with me.

You could not pay me enough, there is not enough money in the world, to make me do the things today that I used to do for free 35+ years ago. (And not because I couldn't still do it).

Don't be naughty now weep or I will use this...



I actually have much respect for you, it's just that our views on speed v safety are diametrically opposed unfortunately.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Oh FFS! Can't you use it on yourself, I was responding to your way off topic question!

I've never seen you this angry before on SS, at anyone.

Signing off now, and will think about what I have said or done ...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

The lady from Cardiff Uni said from 9pm - but Scotland is daylight all night in the summer and dark from 3pm so how does this tally with any impression of it being about darkness !
What about the young parents that cannot take their own children in their own car ??

I agree with many of the comments below/ above (depending how you have your forum page setup).
I agree that either newly qualified people need additional compulsory lesson to go to environments that they are unfamiliar with - just for proper guidance and assistance.
parents are all very well if they are responsible and good but not everyone has them about - I didn't nor did I have a car after I passed either which was most frustrating!
I agree that when you 'qualify' you are either capable or not. IF the test has become insufficient then that needs to be addressed head on.
We all have to take 'plunges' in our lives and learn on the job.
Deprivation of experience is a serious problem and as I said all it will do is shift the errors made from 2 yrs earlier to later and then the older person has similar accidents - just move the goal posts.

This is no graduated license just a restricted license. It is unenforceable and the rules already exist to deal with problem motorists or those that need guidance / advice or re-training.
I still like my idea that the Police would have the ability to suggest an attendance to a course if when stopped there appears to be the need for more education ... it would give them an option other than Court or fines, neither of which teaches anything other than dishes out more stress and life difficulties to those accused - this is for 'technical or minimal faults not the serious motoring errors.

This might be research but it has no real world reality. The discrimination to the young motorists is extreme again a lowest common denominator than of any real benefit.

Self interest learning is the key to making someone chose to want to learn for themselves - help people to recognise this for driving / riding and you inspire them to want to get better for themselves, and there is no better incentive than someone who has chosen to improve for themselves.
We have a great culture of driving / riding in this Country and there are already many car clubs and groups - perhaps we need to collate those groups that might be willing to take part and for all those that can to help the youngsters learn and grow with guidance from those that are interested and simply want to help.
Young people can view the older person as too timid and the older person can view the younger motorist as reckless and lack of consideration. Yet the two can meet and find that they are not so different - just the experience and knowledge.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I don't think it is about darkness - it's about life style.

I think the darkness aspect is something the media picked up on - as far as I am aware, all areas where these sort of restrictions apply use an arbitrary time.

A lot of the notable fatal accidents in Cumbria have coincided with the roads being quieter at the times the incidents have occurred.
At one time, drivers were negotiating a stretch of road with the solar cats eyes which self illuminated, with their headlamps turned off - and it resulted in 3 teenagers being killed.
The 18 year old driver had been given the car that night as a birthday present, and a girl of 15 who died was in the back seat - the accident occurred at around 3.00am. The headlight switch was found in the off position.

If the time limit would cause it's own "rush hour" then let's ask... - Northern Ireland has limits - New Zealand has limits - do they have a rush hour?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!