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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 19:09 
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From the mail,
A leading British academic has been killed after her tiny electric car was involved in a crash.

Dr Judit Nadal, 47, died after her blue G-Wiz collided with a Skoda Octavia.

Known as Dr Nagy in the academic world, rather than by her married name, Dr Nadal was head of a research facility at Imperial College, south-west London, where she led groundbreaking work into finding solutions to a vast range of illnesses.
It is believed she was on her way home from the university when the accident happened on the A41 Hendon Way.

The safety of the ‘eco-friendly’ G-Wiz has been questioned previously.

In 2007, a crash test for Top Gear Magazine found a collision at 40mph would leave the occupants with ‘life-threatening injuries’.

Experts at the Transport Research Laboratory were so concerned about the Indian-made G-Wiz that they refused to risk their more sophisticated £130,000 crash test dummies – full of electronic instruments – in the test for fear of them being wrecked.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z13Ii3tCgR

This is what happened when the eco-friendly G-Wiz electric car was put through a crash test that it - unlike most other vehicles - never had to pass to be deemed roadworthy,
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/arti ... h-crash.do

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 19:16 
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And, ironically, she was probably a strong believer in man-made climate change (otherwise why was she driving a G-Wiz?) and ended up paying for her principles with her life :(

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 09:43 
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It would be almost impossible to build a full electric car to modern safety standards for a sensible price, it would simply be too heavy.

The g-wiz is a grown up version of the c5, Technically it is a brave attempt but it is not a car, it just looks like one. And thats the rub.because it looks like a car people can be lulled into a false sense of security about there relative safety. you only marginally safer than on a bike!

The G-wiz has a similar "Utility profile" as a bicycle or small scooter (Range,speed, etc) but with greater usefulness (you can take two people, shopping, and stay warm and dry in poor weather) and arguably with greater safety than with a bike/scooter. but not much safer! And as somebody has commented if you are involved in an accdent on a bike you dont tend to get tangled up in it as you would in the g-wiz making the rescue and trip to hospital rather easier

But it can be nowhere near as safe as a "Full" car as far as crash resistance is concerned. Actually even "Full" cars have problems when they are small. The SMART is a tough little beast, but with no room for crumple zones you would have little chance of surviving a significant impact (Though the riged body cage would mean that the emergency services would have an easier job of removing your lifeless body afterwards) There are the predictable calls for them to be banned. I reckon that this is an overeaction. G-wiz has its place and I would be happy to have one, but only as a second (Or even third) car and only for short low speed runs to the local shops. I wouldnt even want to take it out on the bypass. (In fact the only routes that I would want to use a bicycle on IYSWIM)

What is needed here is education about what small EV's are capable of and where they should be (and should not be) used not bans on an emergent technology

The safety "logic" in Banning the g-wiz could equally be used for banning cycles and motorbikes, be carefull what you wish for!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 17:34 
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Dusty wrote:
It would be almost impossible to build a full electric car to modern safety standards for a sensible price, it would simply be too heavy.

Surely the Nissan Leaf qualifies...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 21:00 
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PeterE wrote:
Dusty wrote:
It would be almost impossible to build a full electric car to modern safety standards for a sensible price, it would simply be too heavy.

Surely the Nissan Leaf qualifies...



I did say Sensible the Leaf RRP is nearly 30 grand! and I will bet that Nissan is selling at a loss too!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 23:24 
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Full Article here :
Daily Mail - Louise Eccles wrote:
Top scientist is killed in G-Wiz electric car horror smash
By Louise Eccles - Last updated at 11:06 PM on 22nd October 2010
Tragic: Dr Judit Nadal, 47, died in a car crash in Hendon, north-west London
Tragic: Dr Judit Nadal, 47, an expert in the study of proteins, died in a car crash in Hendon, north-west London
A leading British academic has been killed after her tiny electric car was involved in a crash.
Dr Judit Nadal, 47, died after her blue G-Wiz collided with a Skoda Octavia.

Known as Dr Nagy in the academic world, rather than by her married name, Dr Nadal was head of a research facility at Imperial College, south-west London, where she led groundbreaking work into finding solutions to a vast range of illnesses.

It is believed she was on her way home from the university when the accident happened on the A41 Hendon Way.
The safety of the ‘eco-friendly’ G-Wiz has been questioned previously.
In 2007, a crash test for Top Gear Magazine found a collision at 40mph would leave the occupants with ‘life-threatening injuries’.

Experts at the Transport Research Laboratory were so concerned about the Indian-made G-Wiz that they refused to risk their more sophisticated £130,000 crash test dummies – full of electronic instruments – in the test for fear of them being wrecked.
Instead, they used a cheaper, more basic variety.
Fatal: Dr Nadal died after her G-Wiz collided with a Skoda Octavia on the A41. The safety of the 'eco-friendly' G-Wiz has been called into question

In the same year, ministers expressed their alarm at the safety risk posed by this type of mini-car – exempt from standard safety test regulations as it was classed as a ‘quadricycle’ – and considered proposing a ban.

The accident happened at 6.45pm on Monday.
Dr Nadal was taken to the Royal London Hospital, but died at 8.21pm.
A post-mortem examination was held yesterday, but the results have not yet been disclosed.
She lived in north-west London with her husband Miguel and their son. Last night they were too upset to talk.
Concerns: In 2007, a crash test for Top Gear Magazine found a collision at 40mph in a G-Wiz would leave the occupants with 'life-threatening injuries'.

Since 2006 Dr Nadal had been director of the proteomics facility at the Institute of Biomedical Engineering.
Proteomics is the study of proteins and can help find the cure to many diseases by identifying the proteins in human cells.
Dr Nadal had been at Imperial since 1993, when she studied for a three-year PhD in biochemistry.
She went on to obtain a post-doctorate from Imperial in 2000, before being offered the role of protein analysis facility manager at the Centre for Molecular Microbiology and Infection at the college.
Police are investigating the collision and asked any witnesses to call on 020 8998 5319.

How very concerning that in this day and age the vehicle received such little testing and provided such a low protective ability - but is it a surprise. The car is tiny and light apart from the batteries. In any accident one must be gravely concerned about acid spill - or are they of another type of 'cell'?
I see that the car split in two and the battery compartment remained as one unit, makes me wonder fi not a roll cage type set up was / is not essential ?
It is obviously that small vehicles are more likely, to fair worse in any accident if it is to occur. I know with my little 'scooter bike' it is only as good as a small car and although not great it is better than 'just a bike' where one is much more vulnerable, but I am fully aware that I carry a high risk when riding.
So if the car has 'passed' 'a' test facility and all vulnerabilities made very clear to those who purchase the vehicle, can the manufacturer then truely be held 'responsible'?
Is this what happens when manufacturers are 'encouraged' to build new cars that perhaps should not be on the road ?
Is this like LPG vehicles and the dangers of gas cannisters in a standard 'car' ?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 23:45 
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The G-Wiz is classed as a "quadricycle" and so didn't receive the thorough crash testing that cars get. A Smart car, which is about the same size, would offer far superior crash protection. As Dusty says, as it looks vaguely like a car, people assume it offers the same level of crash protection. I might nip to the shops in one, but I certainly wouldn't fancy taking it on a busy 40 mph urban arterial like Hendon Way.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:03 
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Quote:
In any accident one must be gravely concerned about acid spill - or are they of another type of 'cell'?


Not to mention the electrochemical energy "Getting loose" as it were.

The tesla battery pack (a slightly more grown up EV :D ) contains, basically, over 6000 lIon laptop batteries. I would love to see what happens when one with a fully charged battery gets squashed by a truck!

Though probabally only from the safety of a concrete bunker a couple of hundred yards away! :shock:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:54 
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It's worse than you think.

The Tesla uses A123 Lithium Ion cells which are different to laptop type batteries. Laptops use cells only designed to discharge at a couple of amps maximum. These cells are actually inherently more likely to short internally than the A123 types (due to their design) and it is this risk that causes the smouldering laptops seen on aircraft.

However, the A123 cells can discharge at 100A and thus any fire will not just be a low level event. The power of the discharge will be very high and so your fear about the stored energy hazard is correct.

The other big snag is that Lithium battery fires are self-sustaining and cannot be extinguished by conventional extinguishers. If you want to be really scared, just Google "plane crash lithium batteries" and see what you get!

If you were a rescue worker, would you want to just grab hold of random parts of vehicle fitted with a 300V battery system and involved in a crash?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:33 
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RC electrical plane/helicopter modellers know not to approach their craft for several minutes after a crash, because of the Li-Ion cells.
There is a story (possibly exaggerated) of a guy who threw a crashed RC copter into his car, not knowing his batteries had taken a hit – apparently that was the end of his car.

malcolmw wrote:
and cannot be extinguished by conventional extinguishers.

:yesyes:
Throwing water at a lithium battery fire is the absolute worst thing one can do. The highly reactive lithium will rip the oxygen from the water, leaving behind hydrogen gas. A lithium battery fire is intense enough without the hydrogen......

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:16 
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A powder keg waiting to happen. I wonder what Fire-fighters think about battery cars ?

I wonder what caused the fatal side of this accident?
Was it the battery component or the accident itself?
(As in, sustained injury from the lack of protection from the vehicle and accident itself.)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 20:29 
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A powder keg waiting to happen. I wonder what Fire-fighters think about battery cars ?


Not a lot I should think. I have said for the last 20 years or so that I recon that EV developments will likly come to a shuddering halt after the first high speed motorway pileup!

Like the perception problem with the g-wiz, I believe that there is a perception problem with EVs generally. Generations of people have become used to milkfloats as benign and safe vehicles (I dont know what the current case is but certainly in the past pure EV's didnt even need an MOT!)

A EV that can compete (Even remotely) with an ICE vehicle is a potentially explosive (In a way that petrol is not, despite its flamability) mix of volatile corrosive and reactive chemicals and huge amounts of electrochemical energy.

As I have said before. I am all for finding a non-fossil way of running motor cars. But the ICE fueled with a room temperature/presure (or near room presure) liquid chemical fuel is a hard combination to beat. Personally I would be trying to find a non fossil (Or reduced fossil) way of producing such a fuel rather than obsessing with trying to develop a whole new technology based on some rather nasty chemistry and minerals that are scarse even now and will quite possibly cause major wars in the near future if this approach is persued for much longer!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 23:27 
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I think it would be wrong to read too much into this crash at this stage. My guess is that it probably ended up the way it did because the car was small and light rather than because it was electric. I think the early G-Wiz had lead-acid batteries, like a milk float - but I think they were gel-filled and unlikely to spill any acid. The current ones have Lithium Ion.

Contrary to popular belief, not ALL Li-ion batteries are prone to "thermal runaway" (the process whereby they will burn all by themselves even under water)! There's some useful stuff on here:

http://www.axeon.com/getdoc/43a3df82-8c ... le%29.aspx

but Li-iron phosphate batteries don't suffer from that and are commonly used in electric vehicles.

There is a lot of work going on in regulatory circles to develop sensible "post-crash safety requirements" for EVs. That said, manufacturers are well aware of the energy that is stored in their batteries and are already developing ways to ensure that in a crash, you don't end up with a free "perm" if the batteries touch the steel of the vehicle structure. To be honest, my feeling is pretty much the opposite of Dusty's. Everyone is so conscious of the potential risks, that I think the first generation of "proper" EVs (by which I mean those developed as EVs from scratch by major manufacturers rather than converted from an IC-engined vehicle by a small specialist converter) are likely to be SAFER than those that will come in the next generation (when (a) we become a bit blase about it and (b) competition starts hotting up and people start cutting corners).

If all cars were electric, and the IC engine had just been invented, I'm quite convinced that people would be running around throwing up their hands in horror at the idea of driving about sitting on a tank full of petrol - which, it must be remembered, holds MASSIVELY more energy than any EV battery!

With regard to quadricycles and crashworthiness, yes, as has been said, they need to meet MUCH lower standards. Whether or not I'd like to see them banned (or the standards toughened), is a very different matter! There are any number of sports and kit cars out there today (conventionally powered, not electric) which would perform just like a G-Wiz (and possibly worse in some cases!) in a crash. I don't want any nannying official telling me I can't drive one if I so choose! There are any number of classic cars out there which would leave me just as dead - and I still want to be able to drive those if I wish! And then, of course, there are bikes...

NO! By all means pass regulations requiring more clear information about crashworthiness to be made available, but for pity's sake don't ban them just because they haven't got 5 EuroNCAP stars!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 00:43 
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Yep good points well made !
I recall test driving an old Lotus Elan and there was much consideration given to vulnerability in any potential accidents ...
I was merely (I felt) looking at the possibility of battery contributions to any accident and had not assumed that it was at fault here - we will (obviously) need to await the report. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 17:50 
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Just thought to day, that if say a Range Rover had some design weakness that meant crashes were nearly always going to end badly, it would be all over the news, but because the G-Wiz is seen as some kind of environmentally friendly means of transport that should be encouraged not discouraged, it will be kept largely out of the news.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 21:06 
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adam.L wrote:
Just thought to day, that if say a Range Rover had some design weakness that meant crashes were nearly always going to end badly, it would be all over the news, but because the G-Wiz is seen as some kind of environmentally friendly means of transport that should be encouraged not discouraged, it will be kept largely out of the news.


Possibly kept quiet - seem to remember a bit on TopGear on NCAP values ,where Land/Range Rovers didn't come out too well .Something to do with them being made to take off road punishment,so quite stiff ,and nothing deformed slowly to absorb the impact .

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 21:58 
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adam.L wrote:
Just thought to day, that if say a Range Rover had some design weakness that meant crashes were nearly always going to end badly, it would be all over the news, but because the G-Wiz is seen as some kind of environmentally friendly means of transport that should be encouraged not discouraged, it will be kept largely out of the news.


To be honest, my feeling is the complete opposite! I think the G-Wiz has had more than it's fair share of bad press compared to other vehicles of similarly poor crashworthiness! There's no reason to assume that any of the Aixam or Ligier microcars would fare any better, but they never seem to get a mention. Every now and then, the press just starts picking on something, with little interest in presenting a balanced argument. It used to be the Reliant three wheelers until they went bust. More recently, Toyota has been getting a good kicking! That's not to say that it's undeserved (or that any of the above vehicles are actually a paragon of safety), but they could at least point out that the G-Wiz isn't the only car on the market that doesn't have to meet "proper" car standards!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 22:01 
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botach wrote:
adam.L wrote:
Just thought to day, that if say a Range Rover had some design weakness that meant crashes were nearly always going to end badly, it would be all over the news, but because the G-Wiz is seen as some kind of environmentally friendly means of transport that should be encouraged not discouraged, it will be kept largely out of the news.


Possibly kept quiet - seem to remember a bit on TopGear on NCAP values ,where Land/Range Rovers didn't come out too well .Something to do with them being made to take off road punishment,so quite stiff ,and nothing deformed slowly to absorb the impact .


It's a design dating back to the early '70s when all's said and done! Big offroaders tend to have a separate chassis and it's true that they don't crumple very well when the vehicle hits something immovable at high speed. That said, it's all relative. In a typical vehicle-to-vehicle impact, I'd rather be in a Range Rover than a lot of small cars with 5 star crash ratings!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 22:38 
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That said, it's all relative. In a typical vehicle-to-vehicle impact, I'd rather be in a Range Rover than a lot of small cars with 5 star crash ratings!


4X4 Motto...

The crumple zone is on the other car! :D

That said, I really wouldnt want to hit anything while driving mine. The big problem with 4X4's is a tendency to flip/roll due to their high ground clearence (and cosequent high centre of gravity). Once that happens you are in bad $hit!

Having said That! I did hit a Fiesta in my SII landie some years back (She pulled out ""Right" infront of me (and I mean a car length or two! No more than that!)) and the result was a bit like that youtube thing with the truck hitting the Clio. I just sort of scooped it up and carried it along until I was able to stop. Appart from the fiestas passenger door glass spraying all over my windscreen i could really put my hand on my heart and say I really didnt feel a thing! Fortunatly nobody was hurt and the damage (even to the fiesta) was minimal (The fiesta would have needed a new door but appart from that it was OK) but it must have been absolutly terrifieing for the poor people in the car! (All they would have seen of me would have been headlights and bumpers and stopping would have felt like an eternity! :shock: )

I Have a small kink in one end of my bumper! :D

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 23:20 
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Mole wrote:
botach wrote:
adam.L wrote:
Just thought to day, that if say a Range Rover had some design weakness that meant crashes were nearly always going to end badly, it would be all over the news, but because the G-Wiz is seen as some kind of environmentally friendly means of transport that should be encouraged not discouraged, it will be kept largely out of the news.


Possibly kept quiet - seem to remember a bit on TopGear on NCAP values ,where Land/Range Rovers didn't come out too well .Something to do with them being made to take off road punishment,so quite stiff ,and nothing deformed slowly to absorb the impact .


It's a design dating back to the early '70s when all's said and done! Big offroaders tend to have a separate chassis and it's true that they don't crumple very well when the vehicle hits something immovable at high speed. That said, it's all relative. In a typical vehicle-to-vehicle impact, I'd rather be in a Range Rover than a lot of small cars with 5 star crash ratings!


Seem to remember that in the incident on Top Gear, from the damage to the Range Rover - the driver might have needed new legs .Mind you ,saying that ,on a country lane with choice between Range Rover and ditch, in my NCAP5, I'd possibly choose ditch .

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