Safe Speed Forums

An article in the paper about a new way of using hydrogen to produce a fuel which is liquid at room temperatures.
http://WWW.express.co.uk/posts/view/225924/Hopes-soar-of-hydrogen-fuel-costing-90p-a-gallon


http://www.cellaenergy.com/

Looks really interesting if the claims are true.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

I don't doubt that new ways can be found to 're-package' hydrogen, as they may have done here.

However, to produce the hydrogen in the first place still requires more energy than you get out of it at the end. And the 're-packaging' will probably require yet more energy input.

Sorry to sound negative, but it just seems like a humungous waste of money at a time when money is in such short supply.
Doubtless, this technology will become very useful when other liquid fuels become scarce (as opposed to artificially expensive) but just not now.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

If it started off cheaper it would soon be taxed to take away any advantage. At 90p a gallon it is no cheaper than petrol before tax.

When hydrogen is burnt it produces water, but my understanding is that water vapour is our largest green house gas, so how does that help?

I love the quote “In some senses hydrogen is the perfect fuel; it has three times more energy than petrol per unit of weight and when it burns it produces nothing but water.”

..er, isn't hydrogen "negative weight", so does that mean that it creates negative energy and sucks the power out of your car

But being serious - Professor Bennington needs to think about energy density, not weight!!!

mb

You have a good point there, reading further pages on the site reveals the hydrogen content is only 6% by weight. Even with the higher energy density of hydrogen it still looks like it will contain far less per litre than petrol.

That and the issue with producing hydrogen aside it could still offer a workable way of using hydrogen as an everyday fuel. Somebody else just has to crack fusion.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

yAHOO NEWS is running it now, but it's dropped to 19p a litre- they suggest 60p at the pumps .(Definately high time we had a flying pig emoticon ,or have the Coalition borrowed a trick from the Labia lot -making a day to bury bad news with a controversy)

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/31012011/36/19 ... ent-0.html

19p a litre 'petrol' in development

A British company has invented artificial petrol that emits no greenhouse gases and could cost as little as 19p per litre at the pumps.

Cella Energy, the Oxfordshire-based firm that is developing the fuel, uses hydrogen, which is currently much cheaper than oil.

The first road tests of the as yet unnamed fuel are scheduled to take place next year. If everything goes to plan, then the miracle 'petrol' could be available in three to five years.

Though a figure of 19p per litre has been suggested, it is expected that the motorist would pay around 60p per litre with the addition of Government fuel tax.

Even so, that would reduce the price of filling up a 70-litre petrol tank to £42.

Speaking to the 'Daily Mail', chief executive of Cella Energy, Stephen Voller, said: 'In some senses, hydrogen is the perfect fuel. It has three times more energy than petrol per unit of weight, and when it burns, it produces nothing but water.'

He also said that the fuel could be used in existing cars without the need for engine modifications: 'Early indications are that the micro-beads can be used in existing vehicles without engine modification. The materials are hydrogen-based, and so when used produce no carbon emissions at the point of use, in a similar way to electric vehicles.'

Critics remain sceptical of the real world savings, though. AA president Edmund King commented: 'The fact the hydrogen is cheaper now doesn't mean it always will be because the Government would soon get its hands on it and increase the tax.'

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Sad.
Why assume that the fuel tax would be the same as it is for petrol/diesel ?
Obviously, given that the intention of high fuel taxation is as much to price vehicles off the road and reduce use as it is to obtain revenue, the tax would be much higher to retain price similarity with existing fuels.
It matters not if the price is 1p/litre to make, it would still be 130.9p/litre at the pump.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Amazingly, I actually know Stephen Voller. He is a very nice chap but, I fear, quite idealistic in his outlook. He was involved with a Hydrogen fuel cell company which was wound up as the products were basically impractical and unsaleable.

Hydrogen may well be the fuel of the future but this is likely to be the FAR future and not next year.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

What is the price of LPG fuel now?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

75-80p locally to me as per petrolprices.com .

But has the take up rate/ratio got anything to do with difference ,because I don't remember many LPG pumps near me .Just checked - nearest is on M6 (6mile away) cheapest is approx 10m away .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I wish the guy well, and would be very willing to try the stuff. I'm sure that if it proves at all successful, there will be a monumental scramble for the rights to it! As for the energy to produce it, well, if you're going to have a load of windmills making electricity as and when the weather is favourable, (and therefore they can't be relied upon 24/7) then you may as well have them making energy to help make this stuff.

I don't believe the government will tax it steeply at all until (a) it becoms popular and (b) they start loosing revenue from conventional fuels. If it actually works, I think the biggest immediate risk will be an oil compny buying it and then just "shelving" it.

The average mpg on lpg is about 20% lower than petrol.
The tank size is smaller, meaning more stops (some have only a 50 litre tank) (and less lpg equipped filling stations)
The reliability is not good. If it was, with the lower fuel bill, the commercial vans would be changing to lpg....they are not.
If it really took-off, the tax would go up: Fast.
In any case, with my fuel bill using diesel being not bad, and my obsessive hatred of complex fuel systems, I will stick to diesel.
Just been to Norfolk and back, and with round-the-houses while there the mileage was 369....for 35 litres of fuel @ 10.5 m/ltr.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

On the LPG front Jomukuk, I have to disagree, although I think that my installation was done by an idiot and there in lies a lesson for you all. There are some very good systems around now, most are now sequencial systems with a much finer control over timing.

I run a 4ltr Jaguar XJ8 on LPG and its performance is indistinguisable from petrol. I have toured Europe with it for the last 3 or 4 yrs and it hasn't missed a beat. the exhaust gas is cleaner that a Micra......well nearly! The car starts of course on petrol until a set temperature is reached. This is because, as the compressed gas in the tank is released.....it has the effect of a refridgerator, and becomes very cold. The engine cooling water needs to be at a certain tempertaure to warm up the gas before it enters the engine. On the Jag this happens in about 1/4 to 1/2 mile in summer......longer in winter.

The conversion on the Jag cost me over £2000 pounds (a small 4cyl car would cost from £1000 upwards). So it depends upon how long you intend to keep the car, your mileage, etc etc....

For me it has been worth it, but for others as Jomukuk said, it may not be. One thing if you decide the answer is ...YES! Make ABSOLUTELY sure that the guy who does it knows his stuff, mine didn't. It's not that he was was a wide boy or anything, he just didn't know enough. And there are plenty of them out there.

For your info: I filled up the other day for 72.9p/ltr. (Morrisons) Petrol is 1.29.9/ltr that's 57p per litre less. £2.58.78 per Gallon less!.......
Yes it's expensive to get the conversion, but can you afford not to? Depending how you drive you will get 15% to 20% less mileage than petrol. the slower the revs, the bigger the gain.

Oh! One final point, I can fill up in the UK, land at Rotterdam, drive right across Holland and fill up again in Germany where it's a bit cheaper......

Friend of mine changed his Range Rover to LPG when the cat needed replacing. The cost of the installation was cheaper than replacing the cat. But with small cars accommodating the tank is a problem.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

we did have a tongue in cheek discussion when testing a hydrogen vehicle recently as to whether GVW was measured with a full or empty tank

How do you work that out?

Just because it is "lighter" than air doesn't mean it weighs less than zero, that is like saying concrete has a negative weight because it is "lighter" than lead.

It was a frivolous remark which is why i added a "winky", but now as you ask - yes, hydrogen does have negative weight (in air) which is why hydrogen balloons float - just like a concrete block would do in a bath of molten lead.

Now mass - well that is a different story

mb

I understand that Iceland has long hoped to become the main source of Hydrogen gas once the problems of Hydrogen storage tanks is solved. Apparently, it's difficult to store enough Hydrogen gas in a cars fuel tank to be truly useful and is the limiting factor.
Iceland uses it's Geo-Thermal activity to generate electricity very cheaply, and once you have a cheap source of that........you can separate Oxygen and Hydrogen by electrolysis.

Personally, I think that CNG or "compressed natural gas" (methane" is a better bet, The German garages have sold this for some yrs now, and it's cheaper than LPG. Easier to produce, store, and use. There have been some small problems I gather, (I'd have to re-visit the German CNG forum and struggle with my poor German to get the latest). Some cars don't seem to like it I gather, whether this is due to poor installation or not I'm not sure.

One thing is for sure though! For all you greenies out there....... Methane is reckoned to be 4 times more effective as a greenhouse gas than CO2. So, That means we'll be doing the planet a great favour by burning it!

And an even greater one by leaving it in the ground

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

But methane doesn't come from the ground! It comes from the fruits of your bottom, cows bottoms and rotting vegitation etc. I've worked on plants generationg many KW's of electricity from these sources. Enough to run industrial processes and more besides. At the moment we are largely ignoring it. We're yrs behind some European countries. It's there, but we're just letting it go to atmosphere... why? Surely we should be burning it! Providing hot water to nearby housing estates through heat exchangers from the generator engine cooling system, which at the moment is being cooled to atmosphere by large fans! It's crazy!

Oh! BTW, In German garages it's known as "Erdgas" and very cheap it is too. If it ever reaches here I can see me having my car gas system re-tuned to it.