Safe Speed Forums

Excuse my petty nit-picking when I say the following: Your claim is outright wrong!
Like I always said: the devil is in the detail.


Now let's apply that to vehicles and see if the parallel holds:
- You're cycling 20ish mph, with the wind whistling past your ears. Are you going to hear someone behind you, in a cage, say to you "excuse, me please" ?
- Even if you did, would you move over, or remain in your primary position? A look at magnatom's videos (he knows is being honked at) gives his unequivocally clear answer!
- Finding another way around is a bit more tricky; cars generally don't leave the road to overtake other traffic.
- Is getting out of a car and pushing it past a cyclist really a valid option?
Doesn't really work, does it!

Returning to the unanswered question (which was the point): would you think it reasonable for a pedestrian to knowingly constantly walk in the middle of a (road or pavement type) cycle lane?
Would one reasonably cyclists to wait without: becoming frustrated, ringing bells, riding out of the cycle lane to bypass, or cutting by really closely?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Sorry, Steve, we are going round in circles and I can't be bothered any more. It's actually spoiling my cycling experience, which is supposed to be a pleasure.

So let's say that you win. You've beaten me down with your incisive logic and fine attention to detail.

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"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without argument.” - Julian Assange

As much as I'm sure that was meant to be sarcastic, it seems to be the case!

Incidentally, nobody has really addressed my point as to how a cyclist who would normally obstruct motorists he felt might be a danger would react to a pedestrian obstructing them in a similar way, for example (were these gods of the road ever to deign to use a split pedestrian/cycle path); the pedestrian fears bikes passing them too closely, so they walk in the middle of the cycle side of the shared path (I know of no legislation binding pedestrians not to do so).

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

No. really I'm serious. Steve has beaten me. He should go into politics in the USA, where he would be invincible as the master of the legitimate debating technique, the filibuster.

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"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without argument.” - Julian Assange

So yes, sarcasm, which only strengthens your case (see what I did there?).

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

So, tone, you'd cycle along this yellow line? What would you do when you got to this drain cover (note this is a nice flush one, some are sunken, but it's still a hazard and a risk, especially in the wet)?




To add, I've positioned the bike where I normally ride, with my left hand over the line.

Dunno bout you but if I need to take primary and there's someone behind me who I could conflict with I negotiate with them. This involves looking back (if safe) and seeing if they are going to let you go, generally a open palm from the driver, or eye contact let's you know they're willing to let you go first and not try and squeeze into the pinch point with you (although sometimes you'll get some utter idiot that want's to), such polite people will always get a thumbs up from me, and it's often accompanied by a smile and a wave from them as they pass later.

Other signals help too, the sound of them letting off (or putting on) the gas, changing gear, speeding up or slowing down, may negate the need to negotiate with them in the aforemetioned way.

Basically a myriad of signals, including eye contact with the driver will tell you if they are going to let slow to let you negotiate the hazard. If they do, all well and good, if they don't then I slow or stop as necessary, not all communication is verbal.

Suffice to say if they wanted to make an aggressive close pass and I had yielded I normally ride by their window at the next traffic light/junction/queue and politely point out "we all go the same speed round here".

Firstly, I'd like to say that over the years I hope that you know I don’t dislike you and never have! If we ever met I would love to shake your hand and buy you a pint where we could have a nice civil conversation about all road matters because I don’t think all our views are that diametrically opposed. This is a forum where we should be able to discuss matters, not a hate campaign against cyclists or any true road safety enforcement, otherwise I wouldn’t be here!

Right then, quick rant over, to answer your question.. I have been in that exact situation more times than I have had hot dinners, and that isn’t much of an exaggeration coming from me for once.

Each time I come across something like that I look well ahead and if it is like the one in that picture, or a little sunken, I stay right where I am and ride over it or if it’s like some other ones I’ve seen where the f n thing has actually been missing I move out into, wait for it, what I now know is called the Primary Position well before I reach it.

I have a lot of experience of using two wheels in just about every weather condition England has had since 1974, so now let me ask you something.

If that was a block of ice would it be wiser to ride over it in a straight line or suddenly take a different line around it risking your wheels slipping from under you or getting nearer passing cars? WELL?

I know from experience what the better thing would be to do weepej and I think you know I am right on this too. To reiterate – if that was a complete block of ice, would you be safer to keep your line and ride right over the top of it in a dead straight line and do you honestly believe you would fall off doing so? I know the answer even if you don't. That’s what I would do and have done countless times and I think you would be a fool to do anything else!

Oh, that is unless you use the PP for the entire length of the A38 into Birmingham at ~10mph or less p1551ng every driver off and turning them into cycle haters....

Again - I am a pedestrian, cyclist, biker and driver - just in case you or anyone else thinks I have a hidden agenda.

Over to you, or whoever wants to cross swords with me on this...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Thanks. Yes interested.
The UK roads have developed over many years, as a result from invading Countries, to culture and the current requirements and knowledge at that time. There are even roads built to help keep the population alive when famine struck! So we have good straight roads to winding roads that are a bit like a roller-coaster.
This does now present a problem to our current demands on the road network, but only because we are asking more of it, than it can deliver in some cases.

Another issue is with choice of bike. Does desire over-ride suitability for the 'terrain' expected when choosing the bike - is there any real guidance ?
For example when I take out the MTB I will happy transverse many types of terrain and grit almost without a care other than safety, but when I take the racing bike that has far greater attention focused on every pebble or small mark on the road and grit is avoided if at all possible, and even road choice will vary too (the smoother the better).
We know that many BMX riders will even consider many road furnishings as a challenge to be conquered !
So if we have so many types of bikes, to satisfy so many types of humans, achieving so many different purposes, with many different riding styles, due to many varied human levels of skills, ability and knowledge or lack thereof, it is hard to find common ground that will fit and work for everyone.
Finding root causes that help all, need to appeal to the core instincts of self interest and worth, before acceptance and implementation of those improvements for self gain.

Tone to a degree it is similar with speed limits that change so that one day 40mph is safe and the next 31 is considered dangerous. You pavement analogy is fair and is shown well especially in Bournemouth where a huge wide pavement allows for bikes for certain months and bans them at other times when pedestrians 'take over'. At least that is an obvious reason. However in your example we do have Police that are unlikely to arrest for a 'safe infringement' and that is the whole point about having more police patrols that can judge when to 'tick-off' and when to apply fair and proportionate enforcement.

To add - for Tone's new post - When approaching different drain grates (etc.) they are transversed appropriately in each case and according to bike type and conditions and abilities (etc - see above). We learn 'what is best' for all prevailing conditions, we just have to ensure that the best 'learning' is taking place.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

For that drain grate it is perfectly appropriate to go straight over it, with preparation for a 'drive through' and good upright balance and eyes ahead to where one is cycling to. If there was other debris then a 'lifesaver glance' and a pull out to just pass it just on the far edge of the outer yellow line is where I would choose to go, but many will travel out a bit further as you suggest that you do. Nothing 'wrong' in that either, we all choose a reasonable and safe path according to our abilities knowledge and skills.
There was a change in practice many years ago from setting drain grates parallel to diagonal to be safer for those crossing them. The wet issue if not a 'raging torrent', but just 'wet' would not necessarily have me pull out, if all else was safe.
Cameras are being worn to record and replay vehicle inter-actions, because those cyclists that receive incidents choose to travel in a very out or PP position, so it is highly relevant.
It does occur to me to say (from some of your former comments) - I do 'get' your point, it is clear, I just don't buy into the concept as safer or better. I do agree that pulling out when appropriate is sensible on a few occasions. It is not that I don't understand it, (well I don't believe so anyway) I do appreciate that you are here talking about it, and explaining each component, trying to impart why/how you think this is a good idea.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Claire? Are you really saying that in Weep's photograph that you consider that the bicycle is too far away from the kerb and that he should be riding on or to the left of the yellow lines? That is crazy! The yellow lines themselves are a hazard (lumpy and slippery when wet). And so close to the kerb than that just doesn't give you any recovery room if you do hit a pothole.

Motorists rarely drive so close to the kerb or to obstructions, even when going slowly.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Speaking for myself: I would regard it as unacceptable for a pedestrian to constantly walk in a cycle lane. Just as unacceptable as a cyclist constantly blocking motorists on the road. But I would consider it quite reasonable for him to do it occasionally, especially if it enhanced his safety.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Just try riding a bit further out, so that you don't go crashing over the drains, then, when you're comfortable with that, try a little further, etc, etc, until you are somewhere near the current guidelines in eg Cyclecraft, Bikeability etc.

As a rule of thumb you will get the same passing distance from cars, as you leave yourself from the curb. Try it, you might like it! And you will suffer far fewer punctures.

For me, as I explained *I* would go over it, but as I also said his position is also OK. To him his approx position shown is what he felt comfortable with. I would also be about where he is too, if other factors were present.
What speed do you ride to miss a pothole ? I usually ride between the yel lines as not only was that what I grew up doing, as the main roads (that had dbl yels) were so very busy that that was the safest place to be. I have never that I can think of ever had a 'slip' from yel lines, yes you can feel that the grip changes so you 'brace' and prep and travel on, but if most feel more comfortable just to the o/s of the dbl yels then that is fine. As I said people will choose what they perceive to feel safe and comfortable. I learned to be (probably for you, too) close to the edge. If I have not 'expected danger' then I have not been observing well enough or anticipating enough, or going to fast to stop in the distance that I can see or know (for sure) to be clear (free from all hazards or potential ones).

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

What people feel to be safe and comfortable isn't always what is actually safest. I suspect that few of the cyclists on this forum have had any real training, formal or informal, for cycling on the road.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Why? For that grate in those conditions it's fine, there is nothing about either and even with many cars and vehicles approaching from behind I want to ensure that I am working as symbiotically as possible. I am safe and out of their way too, whilst sometimes they come into my expected imaginary 'route' so on occasion do I also as carefully and as safely as I can encroach into theirs. I expect all parties when that happens to only ever do so for the minimum time period and probably accompanied with grateful hand gestures and a smile.
Just because a 'current guideline' suggests that I might be 'allowed' to be 'out' (PP) then why deliberately travel out there when I simply don't need to?
I am happy to have cars pass me at 2ft frankly (only ever had that happen on nice straight roads anyway), but I do appreciate that many cyclists feel uncomfortable with that. I like to think that I am a capable and confident in my abilities and only ever 'check and see' or ask for more room when necessary. An indicator to a distant car behind will inform them of my intended action too, on occasion and that would be for pulling out for grates when required.
I have mentioned my rides into C London (mostly on a great little racing bike that I used to have), and I can still only think of 1 puncture which I repaired with the help of a near by puddle (too noisy to hear the hiss!) (the 3 lane road approach to Hammersmith).
If you get too many punctures is that because you are on the race skinny tyres - I wonder? Are you travelling routes that are cleaned less or that there has been a build up of traffic since the last clean? Can you approach the Council and not request more cleaning or learn of their routes to aid your travel plans ?
In other words solve the root cause?
I am concerned if you used this 'out' position in the more rural roads you'd end up in trouble, or do you go further in positions on more rural roads. I know with my current racing bike I will choose routes careful as the wheels are more fragile than the MTB one's by a long way. Some roads that have been (and still are being) damaged by frost, do make me go very carefully over some sections, or I take another road when possible.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Humm well on one hand I think the 'out position' is leading cyclists into danger with traffic and I cannot see that as being 'safe'.
Regarding training, whilst they may not have had formal training, they have probably been learning from parents about what is safe and predictable behaviour, and how to watch out for 'this and that', then when they learned about driving they had formal training for that, and for those that have had motorbike training (like myself) then another formal training qualification. Then there are additional training from other experts too, and in some cases the more experienced friends who have genuine knowledge, and then of course lets not forget the wealth of experience over the years of road use too. Let's not forget that someone who has learned to drive can also teach someone to drive too it is adequate. We also have human instincts of self interest and preservation at play too.
I am concerned that when the rules for cyclists change and especially to this more extreme PP that other road users are unaware of it, and so it is not predictable road behaviour, that as shown in the video with the white van placing cyclists in a 'dangerous dominant unexpected position'.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Just my 2p.. after seeing weep's picture.

My typical road position (i.e. where i am most comfortable riding) is such that from my eye-line my left hand (or left most part of my bars) is running just to the right of the kerb. I'd estimate this puts me a couple of feet from the kerb and perhaps a little further out than weep's very practical looking shopper.

Further out (i.e. in the left most tyre track) or Middle of Lane is mostly reserved for pinch points, queues, when keeping pace with traffic flow or stationary/low speed approaching/departing junctions.

+1!

Thus it would be the height of selfishness to intentionally obstruct other road users merely to sate one's own subjective perception of danger, particularly when there are alternatives that will offer the same sensation without imposing oneself on others.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Great to see you Ed, a man of great cycling experience if ever there was I nearly pm’d you to ask if you would please contribute.


Agreed.

Guilty as accused. But, as I think we would all agree it is after you pass your test that you really start to learn

The conclusion I’m starting to draw is that it isn’t about what is safer or less safe but personal riding styles; it’s apples and pears. I bought my latest bicycle under the cycle to work scheme and I have been using it regularly, except through the winter. At the risk of shooting myself in the foot I looked at the official Birmingham site where it says

“Don't ride in the gutter, ride about one metre out. This avoids drains and grit, makes you more visible and prevents cars passing where there is not enough room”.


http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Satelli ... rmode=live

But I still get the feeling that whoever wrote that just copied it from elsewhere and doesn’t cycle along Birmingham’s roads. I say that because the vast majority of cyclists I see ride exactly as I do; staying close to the curb. You can believe me or not but I can tell you very few ride 1 metre away and certainly not all the time as this seems to advise. I think it’s because the experienced cyclists in Birmingham know something the person who wrote that doesn’t. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if the author doesn’t even cycle around Birmingham’s roads.

The other untruth I’ve spotted is about avoiding drains and grit. I’ve declared my feeling on drains but sorry, grit and crap is usually confined to very much less than a foot from the curb, typically no more than a few inches in fact depending on the time of year and certainly not up to a metre away! I don’t like it when people who purport to be an authority on a subject exaggerate or just plain lie to make a case.

Even the far edge of drains are only about a foot from the curb, as shown in Weepej’s picture. I know, why not go the whole hog and cycle two metres into the road then you’ll really be away from grit and drains. In fact if you’re going to make vehicles go around you by being a metre in the road why not be slap bang in the centre so they have to treat you like a milk float? That’ll be good for business and the environment.

(A sarcasm detector, that would be useful).

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.