Safe Speed Forums

Fair Fuel here

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

When I started driving and working in 1969 you could buy three gallons of petrol with a pound note. In the typical small car I drove that three gallons would, with a following wind, take me 100 miles.
In terms of average earnings that 1969 pound is equivalent to £24 today. That £24 pounds today will buy me 3.8 gallons of petrol which in my current small car will take me 190 miles.

Using the RPI (which makes that 1969 pound equivalent to £12.50 - nough to buy two gallons of petrol and travel 100 miles) the cost has not increased.

So in forty years the affordability of petrol has doubled. How much cheaper do you think it should be?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Not for long: according to Euro-Gods.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/03/28/yeah-thats-gonna-work/
Petrol cost won't matter !

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Mmmmm! Just what we needed - some more dead city centres and a few more out-of-town "retail purchase experience" parks...

interesting sums! I wonder, however, if there were any fewer drains on your purse in 1969 though? Not quite sure what I'm trying to say here, but are there any things today that we "must" spend money on in order to live reasonably normal lives, which we didn't back then? Maybe I'm asking what percentage of "disposable" income was spent of fuel back then - but of course, in the case of many trips by many people, they aren't "luxuries".

Assuming 3% annually, £1 in 1969 equates to £3.46 in 2011

In order to achieve the compound increase you describe, an annual increase of 7.9% is required. That seems a bit much to me.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Well... The basic rate of income tax was 33% back when I started working. But "rates" were much lower than council tax is today because a lot more of the income tax was fed back to the local council. I think domestic fuel was cheaper and food rather dearer. House prices were lower but mortgage interest rates were much higher, 12-15% , but were ta deductible.

But the main difference is that we were much less reliant on our cars back than. For the first ten years of my working life I never used a car for commuting and that was not unusual.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Average wage 1950 = £7.00
Petrol per gallon 1950 = 15 (new) pence (36 old pence)

Average wage today (ish) = £499
Petrol per gallon = £6.04

Carry on..................

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

I seem to recall unleaded being about 38ppl in circa 1993/94 when I was doing 500 miles/week. Now it's 130p, my wages haven't gone up 3.4x even taking the fact that I was on the basic rate of pay and now I am getting a supervisors grade + a bit + other benefits.

How cheap do I want fuel? I will pay the going rate for fuel, which right now is about 55p. I don't mind paying to use the roads in the form of a few pence on a litre of fuel, but I do object to paying more in tax that I pay for the commodity I am buying. Paying more to fuel an 89 hp grocery getter than an American spends fuelling a V8 grates a bit, no, a lot actually.

We have never had cheap fuel in this country and it adds to the cost every time we go to the shops.

Do the "averages" over the years consistently reflect the distribution of those in none, full and part-time employment?

I still think something is amiss. Perhaps a convenient reference was chosen? I can do that:

Have wages nearly doubled in the last 9 years? The ONS says 'nowhere near'!

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Why do you make that assumption rather than checking with reliable sources such as these
http://www.measuringworth.com/aboutus.php
http://projects.exeter.ac.uk/RDavies/arian/current/howmuch.html
http://eh.net/hmit/
Assumptions are dangerous things for a man who value exactness


You must be too young to remember the Heath Government of the early seventies when the RPI doubled in five years - 15% per annum.

The earnings figures are in line with my experience. My starting salary in 1969 was about £1100. My son is starting on about £27000. We both were/are well qualified graduates in fields where there was/is a shortage of good people.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I was right - you did take a convenient baseline (your 1969).
Yes I am too young to remember that; I think you find most of today's working people also don't. Hence you cannot use that as a valid baseline for your argument.

Have wages nearly doubled in the last 9 years?

I think you'll find fuel costs have!

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

It isn't a case of choosing a convenient baseline but of choosing a sufficiently long period to get a good result. A man's working lifetime seems to be a perfectly reasonable period over which to assess long term trends. If you select a short enough period you can get any result you like.
The fact is that the real price of fuel dropped substantially in the 1990s and they are now returning to their historic levels.

Observing the number of cars on the roads and the number of miles they travel does not suggest that petrol is not affordable for most people.


Now who is choosing a convenient baseline

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

A better baseline would be one that applies to at least half of the commuting population, not yours which is at the extreme end of what is applicable to only an small minority (which conveniently includes yourself).


Alternatively: the price of fuel was realistic in the 1990s and has been inflated since.


That's irrelevant; no one said otherwise. It being affordable doesn't mean it the price is fair.
However, should the recent trend continue there is a real risk of that outcome.

I guess it is easy for those retired to feel a little smug for not needing to pay commuting costs any longer.

Happy Retirement Dave



Well done for eventually catching up. I can only hope you now appreciate my intent here.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

It is worth remembering that as well as the massive inflation in 1970-1975 there was also a huge increase in the price of fuel in the early seventies. I remember joking about the possibility of the £1 gallon


And was massively inflated in the fifty years prior?

In our kind of economy there is no such thing as a fair price, just a market price.


I always felt that the ten pounds a day I spent on commuting was a fair price to pay for cheaper housing and better scenery.


Thank you. My contract finishes on Thursday but I am been retained as a consultant until the project I am working on is complete. But I will be able to reclaim my travelling expenses.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Possibly not. How much tax and duty was on it back then?


...plus tax (and duty) to dissuade folks from doing such activities, or simply bolstering the coffers. Smoking, drinking and VED are prime examples.


Not everyone has that luxury of a choice. Schooling of kids and/or employment of partners usually factor in too.


It's alright for some

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

See here:

http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/petrolprices.html

The cheapest "real" price since 1983 was in 1992. NB: this will be updated once the March RPI figures are available.


But much less affordable than it was a couple of years ago. And some people - typically those with long commutes and relatively modest incomes - will be really suffering.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

'Petrol per gallon 1950 = 15 (new) pence (36 old pence)'

I was serving petrol in 1949/50 at 11d a gallon (fact).

That's ~ 1p a litre!!!!

140%? Do wages even begin to compare?

Average earnings have gone up by a factor of 80 since 1949.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

In the ideal world that would result if I were the Dictator expenses incurred in travelling to work would be tax deductible.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown