Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Wed Oct 28, 2026 22:53

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 02:12 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7357
Location: Highlands
The Inverness Courier here
The Inverness Courier - Andy Dixon wrote:
Suburban rat-run speeders targeted
By Andy Dixon Published: 03 May, 2011

Stevenson Road in Wester Inshes is the first to be targeted in a new crackdown on speeding motorists. Katy Sutherland

SUBURBAN speeders are being targeted in a new crackdown by police responding to road safety concerns from Inverness residents.

Several roads have been pinpointed with some being targeted by the speed camera vehicles used as a "last resort" by the Northern Safety Camera Partnership.
The camera vans normally operate on trunk roads like the A9 and A96.

This week the agency - which works in tandem with Northern Constabulary to respond to community concerns - will monitor motorists on the 30mph Stevenson Road, Wester Inshes.
The measures have been welcomed by the Wester Inshes community and local councillors, who say the road has turned into "a race track" since being linked to Milton of Leys and Inshes last year.
"It is one of several sites identified in the Inverness area for enforcement action following concerns from residents in relation to the speed of vehicles," said the city's police area commander, temporary chief inspector Graeme Murdoch.
"Fixed cameras within an urban area become common knowledge very quickly but by deploying a camera van or our own officers, we can focus on particular areas and move around, which is probably a more effective way of dealing with it."

He refused to name other streets to be targeted but warned speeding motorists that his officers were focused on the issue.

Claire Stirling, of Wester Inshes Crescent, who is expecting her second baby, is backing the initiative and fears for the safety of children in the area.
"Since the road to Milton of Leys opened it has been used as a circuit by boy racers, so anything that will deter that is a good thing," she said. "There are a lot of kids around here and we don't want to worry about folk racing about the place."

Inverness South councillors John Holden and Roy Pederson both branded the road a race track.
"The lack of accidents is probably due more to luck than speeding being discouraged," Councillor Pedersen said.

Fellow ward member Thomas Prag hopes the cameras will help expose the scale of the problem, while his colleague Jim Crawford wants to avoid the route becoming an established rat run for vehicles leaving the A9 to avoid the busy Inshes roundabout.
"It's not just outsiders speeding, half the time it is locals," Councillor Crawford said.

The mobile speed camera will operate periodically in the street over the next 12 months.
"We have to educate people to observe the speed limit, which is there for their safety as well as others," said former Inverness South Community Council chairman Bob Roberts, who added that the concerns date back several years.

Chrystall Rutherford, communications manager for the partnership, confirmed the van's presence in Wester Inshes was a last resort and was only sanctioned after all other measures failed to tackle the problem.

Anyone caught speeding will face a £60 fine and three penalty points on their licence or a court appearance.

andrew.dixon@inverness-courier.co.uk
I am querying what other methods they have tried ...
If they wish for people to slow then they need to understand the road layout and all road user activities. To decide what is best from a road engineering aspect will help decide how to apply any enforcement. But I know this roundabout well and it is hopelessly designated causing long long tail backs at rush hour and is badly engineered. They need to resolve the roundabout problem then the need to find 'any' alternative is far less. They are clearly 'educating' the public with propaganda that this is 'the solution' to all problems such that locals start spouting their cause.
Failing to address the real causes of any problems shows lack of forethought and inability to properly deal with the issues effectively.
Cameras are not the answer and proper education to all road users is.
All children need to be taught proper road safety as they grow up and learn how to be responsible, in the same way that all road users need to.
This seems to be a serious lack of resolving the true cause of a problem and is certainly no 'solution'.

Northern SCP here : http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2010/07/16104117/0

I see here (22.8.08) that the former inspector was fined for speeding and lost his job ! (72 in a 60) by a Gatso.
Shows here that Insp Derrick Cronie was the Project Manager.
Central Scottish Camera Partnership - Launch of Central Scotland Safety Camera Partnership (here): http://www.centralsafetycameras.co.uk
Contacts: Central Scotland Safety Camera Partnership: Chrystall Rutherford, Tel 07768 343000
Falkirk Council: Barbara Suttar, Press Officer, Tel 01324 506057
Clackmannanshire Council: Margaret Cochrane, Communications Manager, Tel 01259 452023
Stirling Council: Corrinne Gallagher, Corporate Public Relations Co-ordinator, Tel 01786-443362
Central Scotland Police: Ashley Henderson, Media Officer, Tel 01786 456370

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 20:52 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 21:17
Posts: 3734
Location: Dorset/Somerset border
The best way to reduce rat running would be to attempt to alleviate the traffic problem that people are trying to avoid.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 21:19 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6737
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
Once again people confuse a problem of traffic volume with a problem of "speeding". The word "rat-run" in the title says it all.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 19:04 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 19:11
Posts: 172
Location: Southampton
The term "rat run" annoys me. Roads are built to take vehicles who have paid to use them, so why should they not be used? By trying to limit the roads used, all that happens is traffic is concentrated to other points which then increases the holdups. If traffic is left to find its own routes then it becomes self regulating, if traffic starts building up too much at one point drivers find an alternative route that is less busy.

Further, traffic calming measures in my experience do not slow traffic because drivers speed up to get to a gap around the obstruction.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 19:35 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3434
Quote:
The term "rat run" annoys me.


Me too, around here, it is used for any straight road that does not take you round in circles, which is what the local authority would wish you to do(they must have shares in petrol companies).

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 21:23 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
whynot wrote:
The term "rat run" annoys me. Roads are built to take vehicles who have paid to use them, so why should they not be used?


Leaving aside the point that vehicles do not pay for roads - your comment is rather like asking why cyclists and pedestrians, who have contributed to the cost of building motorways, are not allowed to use them. You are presupposing that all roads are equal which is patently not the case. Some roads - motorways - are built to carry a large volume of high speed vehicles and prohibiting slower traffic facilitates that. Other roads are built for a low volume of slow traffic with a high proportion of it non motorised. Allowing unrestricted use of such roads renders them unfit for their designed purpose as surely as allowing cows on a motorway would render it unfit for its designed purpose. Yet other highways are designed only for the use of foot traffic despite being partly paid for by motorists. Do you demand the right to be allowed to attempt to drive on those?

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 00:32 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 19:11
Posts: 172
Location: Southampton
dcbwhaley wrote:
whynot wrote:
The term "rat run" annoys me. Roads are built to take vehicles who have paid to use them, so why should they not be used?


Leaving aside the point that vehicles do not pay for roads - your comment is rather like asking why cyclists and pedestrians, who have contributed to the cost of building motorways, are not allowed to use them. You are presupposing that all roads are equal which is patently not the case. Some roads - motorways - are built to carry a large volume of high speed vehicles and prohibiting slower traffic facilitates that. Other roads are built for a low volume of slow traffic with a high proportion of it non motorised. Allowing unrestricted use of such roads renders them unfit for their designed purpose as surely as allowing cows on a motorway would render it unfit for its designed purpose. Yet other highways are designed only for the use of foot traffic despite being partly paid for by motorists. Do you demand the right to be allowed to attempt to drive on those?


I beg to differ, the revenue that is paid by vehicle owners, although not directly used for roads, is far greater than the amount spent on roads. The fact is roads are built for vehicles to use and if it is that unsuitable, so that negotiating it becomes difficult, then it is not likely to be used by many people.

At the back of us there was a new housing estate built for which there were two possible roads giving access. Talking to one of our local Councilors at the time, he mentioned that residents in one of the roads wanted a restriction giving only residents access to the road. I asked him what was so special about these residents, that those in the other road were expected to have all the traffic from the new estate using the road they were in. The restriction was never imposed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 08:01 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 22:50
Posts: 3267
whynot wrote:
I beg to differ



You'd be wrong though. Fuel duty, VED and VAT on fuel are not hypothecated for use on roads in any way shape or form.

Good potted history here:

http://ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thing-as ... road-fund/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 08:37 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
whynot wrote:
I beg to differ, the revenue that is paid by vehicle owners, although not directly used for roads, is far greater than the amount spent on roads.


Your point being? Non of the revenue collected from beer drinkers is spent on breweries and pubs; nor do the beer drinkers complain about that state of affairs. That is the non-hypothecated way that revenue is raised in this country and most other western countries. Which is just as well as the cost of asprins would be very high if the NHS were to be funded from tax on the sale of medicines.

The fact that revenue from vehicle owners exceeds the spend on roads is totally irrelevant to the argument about whether some roads should have limited access.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 08:38 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 18:54
Posts: 4036
Location: Cumbria
Funny how their table of "subsidees" ends in 1930... :roll:

Still, I do accept it's all "general taxation" - after all, I've just paid for a nice cycle path round here that I can't drive on!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 08:41 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Mole wrote:
Still, I do accept it's all "general taxation" - after all, I've just paid for a nice cycle path round here that I can't drive on!


And my taxes have funded a maternity unit in Buxton. :D

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:52 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
weepej wrote:
whynot wrote:
I beg to differ



You'd be wrong though. Fuel duty, VED and VAT on fuel are not hypothecated for use on roads in any way shape or form.

Good potted history here:

http://ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thing-as ... road-fund/

So motorists really are cash cows?

We've been around this loop so many times: yes we all pay, but we all benefit too, even people who don't drive, cycle or walk.

It looks like we're getting the same failed arguments from the same blinkered people.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:56 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6737
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
dcbwhaley wrote:
whynot wrote:
I beg to differ, the revenue that is paid by vehicle owners, although not directly used for roads, is far greater than the amount spent on roads.

Your point being? Non of the revenue collected from beer drinkers is spent on breweries and pubs; nor do the beer drinkers complain about that state of affairs.

That is a straw man as it is not a function of government to provide breweries and pubs, whereas it is a function of government to provide roads. I KNOW it is not a hypothecated tax and don't believe anyone on here has argued otherwise. But, even so, the disparity between the huge sums extracted from road users in their capacity as road users, and the paucity of expenditure on roads, is glaring.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:27 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 13:50
Posts: 2643
weepej wrote:
You'd be wrong though. Fuel duty, VED and VAT on fuel are not hypothecated for use on roads in any way shape or form.

Good potted history here:

http://ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thing-as ... road-fund/


I'm not even going to mention the around 40 billion per annum we pay in fuel tax, or what percentage of that gets spent on the roads.

Suffice to say, the average motorist contributes far more to the roads than does the average cyclist or pedestrian.

Unless you can show that not one penny of Fuel duty, VED and VAT on fuel is spent on the roads. But that in turn begs the question of what it is spent on.

_________________
Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 21:26 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 22:50
Posts: 3267
Steve wrote:
It looks like we're getting the same failed arguments from the same blinkered people.


You mean your failed argument surely?

Your basic Mr Toad motorist can't handle this as they need to cling to the idea that they pay for the roads so they can pretend they own them.

Who's blinkered?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 21:35 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 22:50
Posts: 3267
Pete317 wrote:
I'm not even going to mention the around 40 billion per annum we pay in fuel tax, or what percentage of that gets spent on the roads.


0% if you so choose. You could say for instance that 100% of it is spent on maintaining our nuclear deterrent, or the NHS if you like.

Pete317 wrote:
Suffice to say, the average motorist contributes far more to the roads than does the average cyclist or pedestrian.


Eh? Are the three groups your cite mutually exclusive all of a sudden? For instance, I'm a motorist, cyclist AND pedestrian. Question for Steve, who's blinkered here again?

Pete317 wrote:
Unless you can show that not one penny of Fuel duty, VED and VAT on fuel is spent on the roads. But that inturn begs the question of what it is spent on.


Anything and everything.

If you actually want to take a form of taxation that is specifically for spending on roads look no further than your council tax.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 22:26 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 13:50
Posts: 2643
You missed my point entirely.

If you drive a car then you pay a disproportionate amount of tax - compared to your fellow man (or woman) on average.

_________________
Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 22:47 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 22:50
Posts: 3267
Pete317 wrote:
You missed my point entirely.

If you drive a car then you pay a disproportionate amount of tax - compared to your fellow man (or woman) on average.



And I pay more tax than a good 90% of the population, but that doesn't give me the right to jump in the front of the queue at the library or receive special treatment in a hopsital.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 23:14 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Pete317 wrote:
Suffice to say, the average motorist contributes far more to the roads than does the average cyclist or pedestrian.


As it should be, since motorists demand a much higher standard of road construction than pedestrians or cyclists. As a pedestrian I would be more than content with a 1.5m wide road with a load bearing capacity of only a few hundred kg. But motorists require much more expensive roads, several meters wide and capable of carrying several tonnes.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 23:19 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 13:50
Posts: 2643
weepej wrote:
And I pay more tax than a good 90% of the population, but that doesn't give me the right to jump in the front of the queue at the library or receive special treatment in a hopsital.


Good for you!
But, unlike income tax, fuel tax takes no account of your ability to pay.
-
I want no special treatment, I just want to be treated with the same kind of courtesy as I extend to others

_________________
Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.016s | 11 Queries | GZIP : Off ]