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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 20:18 
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Get Surrey wrote:
Injured speedwatch volunteer vows to carry on
May 18, 2011

A 74-YEAR-old Speedwatch volunteer who was hit by a car that mounted a pavement in Guildford has said he is more determined than ever to help tackle speeding.
Brian Carroll was clipped by a car outside the Royal British Legion Club in Northway, Westborough, as he held a speed gun.
Mr Carroll, with three other volunteers, were finishing their Speedwatch operation just before 7.50pm on Thursday (May 5) when a black Lexus LS400 mounted the pavement and clipped the pensioner’s leg.
The driver continued to drive half on the pavement and half on the road before parking around 25 metres away and going into the club building.

Mr Carroll said: “I was holding the speed gun and facing the other way. All of a sudden, the other volunteers shouted, ‘Get out the way, Brian’. Then the car hit me in the back and the legs and carried on up the pavement.”
Mr Carroll, who said he was taking painkillers, added the incident had not put him off continuing as a volunteer.
“I’m more determined to get out there,” said Mr Carroll.
“We have to help keep the speed down, as you never know if a child could have been there.”

PC Joe McGregor, of the roads policing unit, said: “Thankfully, the Speedwatch volunteer was not badly injured as a result of this incident but the situation could easily have been a lot worse.
“While we are keen to speak to anyone who witnessed the collision, we also want to build up a picture of the manner in which the driver was driving prior to the incident.”

Anyone with information about the incident is asked to contact Surrey Police on 0845 125 2222, quoting reference GD/11/4379. Alternatively, call Crimestoppers anonymously and free of charge on 0800 555111.
A 67-year-old man from Guildford has been arrested in connection with this incident.
He has been released on bail to return to Guildford police station on Tuesday, June 28.

Has it really not occurred to them that speed does not sound like it was of any 'issue' in this instance. The person went into a building after parking so it seems that perhaps they were (somehow) unaware that they had knocked someone.
Just how by checking people's speed, will this have prevented this incidence. Assuming that they were wearing hi-vis attire just how much more visible could they have been ? So surely something else must have been happening here. Perhaps the person was simply not paying enough attention or the person had been behind their a,b, or c pillars ...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 22:36 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Has it really not occurred to them that speed does not sound like it was of any 'issue' in this instance.

Nowhere in your quote is it claimed that the incident is speed related

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The person went into a building after parking so it seems that perhaps they were (somehow) unaware that they had knocked someone.

The fact that the driver was happy to drive onto the pavement suggests that he has very little regard for pedestrians and is quite likely to discount the incident, especially if his car was undamaged.

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Just how by checking people's speed, will this have prevented this incidence.

Again: no one is claiming that this was a speed related acident

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Assuming that they were wearing hi-vis attire just how much more visible could they have been ?

I think that the hi visibility was the cause of the accident. The driver, like so many on here, obviously dissaproves of Speed Watch and wanted to give the volunteer a fright. He probably only intended to frighten the volunteer but misjudged it

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 02:43 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Has it really not occurred to them that speed does not sound like it was of any 'issue' in this instance.
Nowhere in your quote is it claimed that the incident is speed related
Really ! He is quoted as saying
Mr Carroll wrote:
“I’m more determined to get out there,” said Mr Carroll.
“We have to help keep the speed down, as you never know if a child could have been there.”
shows that he clearly believes that by ensuring that motorists watch their speed, they will not have this type of accident ! That is misguided especially if he thinks about it - his accident was not prevented so how might anyone else's ?
dcbwhaley wrote:
The fact that the driver was happy to drive onto the pavement suggests that he has very little regard for pedestrians and is quite likely to discount the incident, especially if his car was undamaged.
I cannot see your links here can hold true ? Many people park on pavements to allow room for all road users even if it has restricted some pavement width, but it maybe a best balance situation ... we cannot know at this time that he / she knew that they had hit someone ? If he didn't know then he won't have checked his / her car.
dcbwhaley wrote:
I think that the hi visibility was the cause of the accident. The driver, like so many on here, obviously dissaproves of Speed Watch and wanted to give the volunteer a fright. He probably only intended to frighten the volunteer but misjudged it
Gosh that is a leap of assumption isn't it ! Whilst some people might disapprove of Speed Watch no one here has ever said that (that I am aware of), they wish any harm on those that carry out their very misguided purpose. Why might you assume that people here would ?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:40 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
The fact that the driver was happy to drive onto the pavement suggests that he has very little regard for pedestrians and is quite likely to discount the incident, especially if his car was undamaged.
I cannot see your links here can hold true ? Many people park on pavements to allow room for all road users even if it has restricted some pavement width, but it maybe a best balance situation


Parking on the pavement is not a "best balance situation". It a clear breach of HC244; it is illegal in many places; it is a flagrant disregard of the interest of non motorised road users. It is rarely justifiable.

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dcbwhaley wrote:
I think that the hi visibility was the cause of the accident. The driver, like so many on here, obviously dissaproves of Speed Watch and wanted to give the volunteer a fright. He probably only intended to frighten the volunteer but misjudged it
Gosh that is a leap of assumption isn't it !

It is actually the most benign interpretation that I can put on the event. If a driver, after deliberately mounting the pavement, hits a pedestrian there are three possibilities. That he didn't see the pedestrian which, given the high visibility clothing is unlikely. That he intentionally hit him. Or my interpretation.


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Whilst some people might disapprove of Speed Watch no one here has ever said that (that I am aware of), they wish any harm on those that carry out their very misguided purpose. Why might you assume that people here would ?

Sorry, Claire, my phraseology was a little inexact. I only meant to say that some people on the forums disapprove of Speed Watch; not that they would inflict harm on the volunteers

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:07 
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Personally, I would have a lot more respect if these volunteers used the speed camera when it was busy or when vulnerable pedestrians, (children), were actually around. I have only come across one of these volunteer type just the once and he was on the approach to a village. He was also the only person on the path and indeed in the vicinity. :? or :loco: ?

How can I respect that? If he’d been by a school at kicking out time I’d be singing his praises more. Yet another example how these people are more interested in just speed than real safety IMO. If I'd gone past him under the limit steering the car with my feet he'd have had no problem with me that day.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 15:35 
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I was just being realistic, it is widely observed that people park part on the pavement or side of the road (sometimes on grass / mud, sometimes on pavement) it happens. I never said that it wasn't an offence of that you are quite correct. :)

I think that if you have never 'felt' what it might be like to hit someone could you really know that you had done it - that is all I was proposing (I have never hit anyone in case anyone is 'wondering').
If the person is moving in time with your movement (often observed at roundabout and esp with roads that curve slightly onto the r/bout), you can (even) hide a lorry (given the right lines and distances or 'set-up', let alone a person !
It is a curious thing that he carried on too and then parked ... that tends to lead me to think that he was (for whatever reason ?DUI?) failed to realise that he had knocked into someone.
I am sure we will hear more.

Has anyone around here hit / knocked someone?
I have been spun by a car and bumped when on my bicycle ...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 19:12 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Get Surrey here
Get Surrey wrote:
Injured speedwatch volunteer vows to carry on
May 18, 2011

Mr Carroll said: “I was holding the speed gun and facing the other way. All of a sudden, the other volunteers shouted, ‘Get out the way, Brian’. Then the car hit me in the back and the legs and carried on up the pavement.”


Couldn't it be argued that the driver of the black Lexus on seeing the group of speedwatch volunteers, was fixated with watching his speedometer and as such his attenton was diverted away from the road ahead? Inattention also causes accidents.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 23:27 
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Not quite inattention, although how and where he is operating the equipment at the side of the road was clearly not safe and was putting himself in danger.
One of the problems with the public acting as BIBs is that they are not properly trained, and not as skilled in operational activities. It was always a fear that the MoP would be vulnerable to these types of dangers.
Certainly the actions of the driver needs to be thoroughly investigated.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 07:58 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Not quite inattention, although how and where he is operating the equipment at the side of the road was clearly not safe and was putting himself in danger.


If a pedestrian cannot be safe - from cars - on the pavement where, on the highway, can he be safe :?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 08:46 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Not quite inattention, although how and where he is operating the equipment at the side of the road was clearly not safe and was putting himself in danger.
If a pedestrian cannot be safe - from cars - on the pavement where, on the highway, can he be safe :?
In a car doing the speed limit or less. :wink:

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 09:00 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Not quite inattention, although how and where he is operating the equipment at the side of the road was clearly not safe and was putting himself in danger.
If a pedestrian cannot be safe - from cars - on the pavement where, on the highway, can he be safe :?
But this is the very point, rather than being a pedestrian only in one spot for a very minimal time frame they were there for extended periods, thus their exposure to danger is far greater, Plus the fact that they need to be 'in line of sight' requires certain positions and the need to be close to the pavement edge and as with this chap his back to the traffic on occasion.
A seasoned officer learns and develops traffic skills and instincts over a greater time frame over years plus ongoing training and expanding abilities. The occasional volunteer is not party to this and thus more exposed to danger and far far less aware. Indeed it was only his colleagues that alerted him to the car not the car noise that might or should have alerted him had he learned a (possible) greater awareness.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 18:18 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
But this is the very point, rather than being a pedestrian only in one spot for a very minimal time frame they were there for extended periods

A pedestrian ought to be able to spend his entire life on the pavement without being in danger of being struck by a motor car. That is the whole point of segregating the highway into carriageway - for vehicles - and pavement - for pedestrians. Your argument that a pedestrian is putting himself in danger by loitering at the same spot (on a pavement) is quite disengenouos.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 20:07 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
A pedestrian ought to be able to spend his entire life on the pavement without being in danger of being struck by a motor car.


Indeed. And with the exception of a very few unfortunate ones, the vast majority do - just as the vast majority of drivers manage to get through their whole lives without coming close to hitting a pedestrian.
But there are no absolute certainties. People get struck by lightning, despite taking reasonable precautions. And vehicles (including bicycles, horses, tractors and buses) for whatever reason, sometimes take an unexpected and unintended trajectory.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 20:39 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
But this is the very point, rather than being a pedestrian only in one spot for a very minimal time frame they were there for extended periods

A pedestrian ought to be able to spend his entire life on the pavement without being in danger of being struck by a motor car. That is the whole point of segregating the highway into carriageway - for vehicles - and pavement - for pedestrians. Your argument that a pedestrian is putting himself in danger by loitering at the same spot (on a pavement) is quite disengenouos.
I think you are missing my point to a degree. I can agree that peds ought to be safe, but they are only so when they too pay attention and be responsible for their own safety, indeed some have had to leap out of the way of cars that have lost control, so just because they are on the pavement does not in itself make it 'safe'. Indeed in Kent an engineer solution that worked exceptionally well was in fact to remove the pavements and just paint the area for peds and as cars perceived the danger to be greater they slowed and less accidents occurred.
So then my point is that if this was a Policeman (woman) in uniform and with all their yrs of training they would likely be more aware of the dangers they may expect when nr pavement edges and watching cars. Perhaps they learn to take good glances in both directions and use their ears to greater extent - perhaps, but it is rare that we ever hear about a police patrol being run off the pavement, but we do hear of peds having this happen sometimes with tragic consequences.
I do think volunteers are more vulnerable and IMHO this helps to show how so, but perhaps you have a point that I have failed to appreciate ? Time will tell us more when the car driver appears in Court and more is made public.
Does that help you better understand my point?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 21:54 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Does that help you better understand my point?


Your point seems to be that because the pedestrian lingered for a protracted period near the edge of the pavement, and despite him wearing hi-viz clothing, it is not unreasonable that he was hit by a motor car.. I cannot accept that argument. It is very rarely justifiable for a motor car to mount the pavement and never so when there is a pedestrian thereon.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 19:41 
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No My point is that mostly people rarely linger on the edge of any pavement for long periods of time. When one does you are exposing yourself to a greater chance of potential incidents.
Placing the members of the public in these more vulnerable positions is not acceptable. So when an incident occurs it is not a 'surprise'. They are less aware and have received only basic training in the use of the equipment. They have non of the experience and advice that a police officer may receive from all their training and from other more experienced officers too.
We have trained police officers that are there to serve the public, and to carry out this job which is rightly well within their duties.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 21:01 
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I don't think the point being made here is one that attempts to justify a car mounting the pavement, but rather one that questions why a man with presumably comparatively little training at 74 years of age was put in a position where he was hit by a car. I am not ageist but perhaps at well past the retirement age it's irresponsible to let him carry out this type of duty. No doubt he felt that community spirit glowing inside him and thought he was making an impact locally but in reality he may have been endangering himself and other road users and far more of a liability that people he was attempting to catch. Would someone younger or indeed a trained police professional have been hit? Was there some test, medical or otherwise, undertaken to assess his suitability for what amounts to, if we are to believe the propaganda of carnage on our roads, a very risky job indeed?


Last edited by DoktorMandrake on Wed Jul 27, 2011 04:22, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 21:29 
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If speedwatch schemes turned pensioners away they'd be in some trouble!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 02:39 
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Is it not true too that as a general 'rule' our hearing is less sensitive and less capable as we get older, so might also he have been less capable at hearing the close approach of a vehicle and hence his worried colleagues calls for concern, as he did nothing !
Yes you are right I was not in any way being agesist just concerned that MoP are being put in an un-necessary position of danger.

If I decided it to stand at the side of the road it would not be on the edge of a pavement, but back away from the pavement edge, because you want good vision and an ability to see what is happening in case anything develops, and for best Observation.

Also those tasked with operating equipment are not thinking or concentrating about anything else other than the car they are trying to target so not even 'trying' to listen out for other events!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 07:52 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Is it not true too that as a general 'rule' our hearing is less sensitive and less capable as we get older, so might also he have been less capable at hearing the close approach of a vehicle and hence his worried colleagues calls for concern, as he did nothing !


If you think that a person of 74 is too physically and mentally decrepit to be allowed to stand on a pavement then, by extension, you would want to ban them from driving. Or do you think that standing on a pavement is more demanding than driving a car?

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