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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:45 
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Independent English wrote:
> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:24:58 +0100
> From: "Independent English Ltd - T. D. Erikson" <info@ienglish.co.uk>
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1
> To: Idris Francis <irfrancis@onetel.com>
> Subject: But they WILL move to fiscal union!! // Re: Ruth Lea: stop trying to save the Euro, move to breakup
>
> OKTC - Please do circulate! And all recipients, please pass it on, far and wide. The Mainstream Media is not reporting this.
>
> Message to Ruth Lea - fiscal union is not at all "unlikely"!

> The European Stability Mechanism - ESM - Treaty (already signed by the €zone govts, due to be ratified soon) will give exactly that - total fiscal union among the Eurozone states. It will have the power to call in as much money as it wants from its member states, whose governments will thereby have the mere function of hoovering up the money from their citizens and transferring it to Brussels. No questions or hesitations will be allowed.
> I can only assume that Ruth Lea has never heard about it. Please someone alert her!
> Just watch the (German, very worried and worrying) video about it !!!!!!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... CZr17HLH5U

> (The details and references have all been checked and verified - they are true.)
> This is as big as Corpus Juris and the EGF!
> It is REAL, BIG and SCARY.

> Once it is in place, it will creat a fiscal union of all the €zone states, ie a mega-state. Its officers will be immune from any civil and criminal action - ie above the law. And from 2014 it will have an automatic Qualified Majority in the European Council so the non-euro states will be utterly subservient to its will. This damn well should trigger a referendum in Britain under the EU Act 2011.
> I gather it is due to be unleashed in the spring (?) The German Parliament is to debate its ratification next month.
> Watch this space.
> I dare say its ratification by the €zones Parliaments will be rather like the passing of Hitler's Enabling Act in 1933.
> Watch out for some fireworks to stampede them all into passing it (cf the Reichstag fire).
> Torquil

except of course that the German people will simply not put up with bailing out everyone else, indefinitely
Idris
Independent English wrote:
Ruth Lea: Eurozone leaders should stop trying to save the Euro, and move on to preparing for its breakup

>> I had intended that this week’s piece would be an “EU free zone”. But the Eurozone crisis staggers on and the latest Commission forecasts were shocking and merit further comment. The Commission, be praised, did not mince its words. They wrote “…the EU economy is moving in dangerous territory. The recovery has already come to a standstill…any further bad news could amplify adverse feedback loops pushing the EU economy back into recession”.
>>
>> Eurozone GDP may increase by only 0.5% in 2012 (after 1.5% this year) compared with spring’s projection of 1.8%. Growth in Germany and France is expected to slow sharply in 2012 and Italy’s economy to flat-line. Spain will struggle and Portugal and Greece will face further economic contraction. But even these scenarios look optimistic, especially for Italy and Spain.
>>
>> The southern economies are in for a torrid time, saddled with the twin burdens of an endemic lack of competitiveness and growth-draining, masochistic austerity packages as they either slide back into recession or contract further. The countries need an improvement in their relative labour costs of around 30-40% to regain to competitiveness, which they can do by either major deflation (in an extended depression) or devaluation. In the absence of the devaluation option, the deflationary route could take years of pain to achieve the required competitiveness. In addition they are highly unlikely to achieve the deficit reduction targets the tough austerity budgets are intended to deliver, if they have no growth.
>>
>> There are of course international ramifications of the Eurozone crisis. A “blame game” is now becoming a feature of international discourse. The Eurozone is an obvious target to attack for others in difficulties. President Obama, a mere week after the Cannes Summit, apparently “read the riot act” to Angela Merkel, Nicolas Sarkozy and Italy’s President Giorgio Napolitano late last week, demanding faster action from the Eurozone’s leaders. Obama, facing presidential elections next year with an economic background of disappointing growth and high unemployment, has already started his campaign. And what better excuse does he have for an underperforming economy than the dysfunctional EU with its toxic combination of political grandstanding and impotence. Granted many of America’s problems are home-grown, but Obama can justifiably point to the global uncertainties and wild gyrations in the financial markets as important factors that are undermining confidence in the US economy.
>>
>> Meanwhile here in the UK the Chancellor has warned of the impact of the Eurozone crisis on jobs and growth. Europe is again a helpful scapegoat ahead of the Autumn Statement when the growth prospects will almost certainly be downgraded significantly. George Osborne knows that poor growth risks derailing his wholly sensible deficit reduction package, much to the glee of the Shadow Chancellor.
>>
>> The Chancellor has a just case. In addition to rocky financial markets undermining of confidence and investment, the EU is still our biggest export market - as we are endlessly reminded by those who seem to believe that this is “good thing”. Partly reflecting the downturn in exports to the EU, a record trade deficit of £9.8bn was recorded in September. The “export-led growth”, so relied upon by the Office for Budget Responsibility to drive growth, is falling short of expectations. Indeed, given the dire outlook in the Eurozone, there is a real risk of a “double dip” recession.
>>
>> The non-Eurozone leaders should now step up their game and brush aside accusations by Eurozone leaders that the crisis is “nothing to do with them”. It has all too much to do with them, sadly. The Eurozone’s politicians are not just endangering their own people’s livelihoods and prosperity, but the livelihoods and prosperity of other nations. Yet they remain stubbornly “in denial” about the state of their beloved project on which they have squandered so much political capital. The Euro is holed below the waterline. Without a major gear change (fiscal union), which looks exceedingly unlikely, the game is essentially up.
>>
>> The Eurozone’s leaders have had more than enough time to “rescue the currency” if they had felt so inclined or domestically politically empowered, but it is becoming increasingly apparent they do not. And this will surely continue to be the case even though the Eurozone now appears to be run by a new-style cabal, the “Frankfurt Group”, comprising Angela Merkel, Nicolas Sarkozy, Commission President José Barroso, Economic Commissioner Olli Rehn, European Council President Herman Van Rompuy, Eurogroup President Jean-Claude Juncker, ECB President Mario Draghi and IMF director Christine Lagarde. Democracy has been hollowed out. And Britain, of course, is nowhere to be seen. We have been marginalised and the sooner the Europhile FCO gets to grips with the new reality the better.
>>
>> It is surely time for non-Eurozone leaders, including our own, to start calling time on the project. Exhortations for fiscal union in the Eurozone, when it appears not to be on offer, will fall on deaf ears. The Eurozone’s leaders should be left in no doubt of their responsibilities to the wider international community. They should now address the key flaw in the currency bloc and fundamentally reconfigure the Eurozone. Who knows, perhaps they are doing this at this very moment - preparations would have to made in deepest secrecy. Rumours of a core Eurozone are already afoot. We can only hope. Interestingly the Treasury is already working on contingency measures and has not made the slightest attempt to hide the fact that it is doing so.
>>
>> Such a reconfiguration should be embraced as a sensible way out of the current impasse. Ignore the propaganda which suggests otherwise. This week’s Economist opined “…the failure of the euro would not benefit any of its members. Even if joining was a mistake [well at least they admit that], quitting would be a bigger one”. This is nonsense on stilts. But there again the Economist campaigned vigorously for Britain to join the euro. They’ve got form.
>>
>> If the southern economies were given their economic autonomy with floating currencies and independent central banks acting as their governments’ lenders of last resort, they would have a real chance of recovery after a period of disruption and difficulty. Whilst not exact parallels, Argentina in the early 2000s and Britain post-ERM were countries that recovered when freed.
>>
>> Of course, southern countries would probably default big-time if they adopted their own (depreciating) currencies and Europe’s banks, under current accounting rules, would probably take damagingly sizeable losses. But the potential problems of the banking system should be tackled directly instead of being used as an excuse for inaction. There must be contingency plans in place for bolstering up Europe’s banking sectors in case of widespread default. Consideration should be given to relaxing the accounting rules, giving banks as much time as they need to write off bad loans and/or worthless sovereign debt. Japanese banks are noted for their reluctance to write off non-performing loans. Following the collapse of the bubble economy in the late 1980s non-performing loans sat on their books for years. And then there is always the option of bailing-out troubled banks. It may be politically unpalatable but it is preferable to the current impasse.
>>
>> The Eurozone’s leaders must shift their thinking from trying to save the un-saveable (the euro as it is) to preparing for the aftermath and shoring up the financial system when countries leave the euro. It is called clearing up the mess. And the Eurozone’s politicians are wholly to blame for the mess.
>> Reblog
11/13/2011 in Ruth Lea | Permalink
This is mostly for information and awareness whatever your Political Viewpoint.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 15:52 
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Greece on the rocks ,Italy shaky ,Spain rumoured - wonder when the Germans or the French will have ha enough .Personally ,IMHO ,sooner the euro hits the buffers and sinks the EEC ,sooner we'll have our country governed from Whitehall by MPs we vote in ,not doing the wishes of the faceless Brussel Sprout .

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 16:33 
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I don't understand all this finance stuff! To my mind, our Western economies seem to work by persuading people to buy stuff they don't need with money they haven't got :loco:

I saw this on another forum and thought it was quite funny though:

"It is a slow day in a little Greek Village. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit. On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the village, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night. The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher. The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.
The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel. The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the taverna. The publican slips the money along to the local lady of the night drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit.
The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note. The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything. At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town. No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole village is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism. And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is how the bailout package works."


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 16:35 
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botach wrote:
Greece on the rocks ,Italy shaky ,Spain rumoured - wonder when the Germans or the French will have ha enough .Personally ,IMHO ,sooner the euro hits the buffers and sinks the EEC ,sooner we'll have our country governed from Whitehall by MPs we vote in ,not doing the wishes of the faceless Brussel Sprout .


The legislation will still be in place.
EU directives are enshrined in UK law.
Even without the EU there will still be the laws.
Maybe you think that our "elected" reps will suddenly start doing their work ?
They are all puppets, even without the EU. The ones always there are running the show...the elected ones are the cannon fodder.

Quote:
"Some years ago a small rural town in Spain twinned with a similar town in Greece.

The Mayor of the Greek town visited the Spanish town. When he saw the palatial mansion belonging to the Spanish mayor he wondered how he could afford such a house. The Spaniard said; "You see that bridge over there? The EU gave us a grant to build a four-lane bridge; but by building a single lane bridge with traffic lights at either end this house could be built".

The following year the Spaniard visited the Greek town. He was simply amazed at the Greek Mayor's house, gold taps, marble floors - it was marvellous, beyond imagination. When he asked how this could be afforded the Greek said; "You see that bridge over there?"

The Spaniard replied, "No."

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 17:02 
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jomukuk wrote:
botach wrote:
Greece on the rocks ,Italy shaky ,Spain rumoured - wonder when the Germans or the French will have ha enough .Personally ,IMHO ,sooner the euro hits the buffers and sinks the EEC ,sooner we'll have our country governed from Whitehall by MPs we vote in ,not doing the wishes of the faceless Brussel Sprout .


The legislation will still be in place.
EU directives are enshrined in UK law.
Even without the EU there will still be the laws.
Maybe you think that our "elected" reps will suddenly start doing their work ?
They are all puppets, even without the EU. The ones always there are running the show...the elected ones are the cannon fodder.



Yep- the Sir Humphriesof this world , but somehow it sits a bit easier when it's done locally :wink:,and we're only paying for UK beaurocrats

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 17:07 
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Where do you think the 200,000 uk-eurocrats are going to work if the show stops in Brussels/Geneva/etc ?

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 17:42 
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jomukuk wrote:
Where do you think the 200,000 uk-eurocrats are going to work if the show stops in Brussels/Geneva/etc ?


Possibly nowhere ,but then ,with no EU -No EU laws ,No Euro bailouts and no EU payments from UK treasury to help the other countries .No subsidies to French farmers tto fun a cheese/butter moountain /milk/wine lake .And if the French ban our beef/lamb/etc ,we can refuse /surtax their wine /cheese/apples etc .For the first time in a long time ,the french will have to sell something on quality ,not because of EU laws ,which they only obey if it suits them .

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 21:15 
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Everybody slags off the EU, but nobody stops to think what the benefits are.

You are free to go in and out of EU countries relatively unhindered by border controls.
You can buy what you want and bring it back - as long as it is for your own use.
Many of the EU laws are simply ones which we should have adopted anyway - what is wrong is the manner in which some of our civil servants twist and manipulate them to keep themsleves busy and in jobs!

Remember the straight banana and cucumbers saga?
The EU rule merely stated that member states should adopt a standard so that quality could be easily compared between various member states.
It was OUR civil servants who decided that in order to do this, WE should have "straight" fruit and veg!
The French viewed this with the same degree of incredulity as ourselves!

By staying out of the euro, we have been denied the opportunity to trade as freely as we should with our neighbours. The banks have continued to charge for converting currency and big producers such as the car industry have hidden the huge mark up made in Britain, because most people cannot be bothered to convert and compare prices.
When I pay my supplier in Holland, the bank charges me £12 to convert my payment into euros - just a key stroke on a keyboard!

When I first started going to France and they still had the Franc, CDs and VHS videos were hugely expensive compared to here - now the boot is on the other foot, because the French people quickly realised once they could compare like for like with Germany and Italy etc., that they were being ripped off - so the retailers and producers had to reduce their margins.

Likewise, the French Government stopped APPLE iTunes in it's attempt to charge more in France than the far east or the States for downloads, by warning them that if there was no parity, they would take away APPLE's copyright protection in the French Courts.

Meanwhile, OUR Government caved in to pressure from the producers, and the film and record industry, and FORCED CD-WOW to stop importing legally purchased product from Asia and selling it cheaper here.

So to the euro! WE in the UK paid to produce the coinage, we paid to inform the public of how it would work, we paid to change the currency over in all the member states - the only thing we didn't do was adopt the euro.
So while the rest of Europe did, the Sun published the results of it's "survey".
A cab driver was asked to take euro's for a journey they undertook, instead of GB Pounds, and he charged an extortionate fee to convert the cash.

The Sun claimed if we went into the euro, others would be ripped off.

NO - the reason they were able to rip the customers off was because WE WERE NOT USING euros... and it was the CAB driver ripping us off, not Europe.

The other argument was that the change would mean that thousands of vending machines would need changing.
WTF?? They needed changing when we went decimal, when we introduced a new size of 50p coin, when we introduced the pound coin, when they started to use steel in copper coins and they suddenly became magnetic - a common way of preventing fraud before.
They are soon to be altered AGAIN, when we get the new silver coins with steel inserts - but that's OK - it's only not fair if we changed the vending machines to euros!

IF our currency is so much better than the euro, how come we are still getting a crap exchange rate?
A three years back I got a euro for 69pence - today it costs me 86p - even though the euro is apparently down in the toilet!

The world has changed. I can go online and shop in China. They accept pounds or euros - or dollars. And they can ship it to my doorstep for little more than it costs me to send a letter to the UK - and cheaper than I can send it to France.
I would rather deal in Europe than China - but guess what - most of the European manufacturers are closing their factories and moving production to the far east.
Remember that scare when Christmas was nearly cancelled, because a container ship was late getting to the UK from China? I bet we all thought it was very amusing... but the truth of the matter is that the particular container ship was full of lost UK and European jobs.

Lots of projects in the UK have been funded by Europe - with some of our money - but getting OUR government to spend it is so difficult, I would rather we fund things via Europe than China - but we will soon be in that situation if everyone fails to pull together - and I am not sure whether we will like the strings that will be attached.

Don't let UKIP or the SUN determine what you think of the euro - go and find out the facts, and start to become savvy about what the euro actually means to us and our neighbours. We might live on an island, but we need to be able to buy and sell with our European neighbours more easily than China!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 22:03 
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Ernest Marsh
quote]Remember the straight banana and cucumbers saga?[/quote]

And
Yorkshire pudings
Pontifract cakes
Cadbury's CHOCOLATE which the Belgians couldn't beat ,but wanted ruled out as not chocolate .
And then ,the rumpas over British Lamb ,while the French still wanted us to import their apples .
The German deceit over the e coli outbrake ,blaming everything from Spanish beansprouts to whatever suited them .
Not so long ago ,with no proof ,variious EU countries trie to ban British beef on foot & mouth fears .
Spanish fishermen are allowed to fish in UK waters ,taking undersized fish in secrret holds ,whilst UK fishermen are fined for exceeding quotas .
Can we trust the EU partners to play fair ?
On this evidence --make your own mind up .

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 22:42 
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The main problem with the Euro is not the use of it as a currency. It is the inevitability of fiscal and economic union that must occur if it is to work properly. This is the reason that it was so vehemently campaigned for by the "United States of Europe" enthusiasts.

If you take the example of the UK, internally, London and the South East "export" money to the poorer regions. We do this as we are part of a monetary union. Within the Euro area this must also occur from country to country (that is if countries exist any more).

Your argument can be boiled down to "the whole world would be better off if we all adopted one Government and one currency". Do you really believe this?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 00:14 
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Once upon a time( as all good stories go ) we had lands occupied by centipieds .
In Britain,we had one wearing size 5 shoes .
In France ,they wore size 7.
And in Holland ,size 8 clogs .
Meanwhile in Germanythey wore size 9
An in Brussels - size8.
The Greeks wore asmall size ,an the Italians something shrinking .

But ,HEY HO said the Overlords in Brussels, hence forth , all nationswill wear an EU size3 Euroclog .
So when this was introduced , and all nations attempte to wear the Euroclog , is it any wonder that any nation wouldn't put best foot forward ,and sat at home with feet up .

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Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 08:28 
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The main problem with the euro is that for it to work complete political integration is needed, as has been said.
The main problem there is that most eu countries do not really like eu countries.
France and Germany "going it alone" would be the ultimate irony.
Still, France can build and operate the nuclear reactors that Germany will not allow...so all that would be needed is loads of cabling.
Job done.
The rest of us can continue to wallow in mediocrity.
As if anyone really cares ?
I mean it...does anyone REALLY care, apart from the politicians ?

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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