Safe Speed Forums

I have split this thread away from "NEW - SCRAPGatso's Petition ".
So lets discuss speed ...
First 'lockinvar' take a look at the webpage :
Speed
s.p.e.e.d
tiger
stockportad

It is always the inappropriate use of speed that may lead to problems. I say may because sometimes people can lose (initial) control but regain it and carry on, or have a near miss and so on.
Whilst it may have been 'an issue' there is no official record, it is only those where incidents result in : accidents or injury to people or property, stopped by BIB, or caught on camera and 'worthy' of investigation, that are recorded.
So all statistics are built from recorded incidents. It is a well known fact that hospital data is greater than Police records as it covers more road accidents where BIB (boys in blue) have not been in attendance. (People in shock do not always realise they are injured, and not all smashed up vehicles are attended by (but must be reported to) the Police.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I suppose the first thing to question,what is being classed as speeding? Going over the posted limit or driving at speed inappropriate for the conditions. The first may or may not be dangerous depending on the actual conditions, the second is always potentially dangerous whatever the limit.

A scenario was given about a driver pulling out of a side road and if the approaching car was doing 30mph everything would be fine but if it was doing 40mph then there would be a collision. This implies that the approaching driver has not seen the car pulling out nor reacted to it. Probably due to the modern teaching/ attitude, "I have the right of way therefore everything is OK". I was taught that a car waiting to pull out of a side road may well do so, for what ever reason. Therefore you cannot assume that the road in front is going to be clear and need, where possible, to maximise your distance by keeping out towards the centre of the road, assuming the car is pulling out from the left and adjusting your speed, so if it does pull out you do not reach the same piece of road at the same time. That should be the basis of driving whatever the conditions. A safe speed is determined on what you can see, what you cant see and what you may see and is certainly not obtained by putting up a post with numbers on it.

You'd advocate the removal of all speed limits and associate legislation?

Are you saying that it is impossible to drive safely without a speedometer?

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Well, if applied properly then speed limits should give a fairly good guide to the speed that is likely to relevant for the area, unfortunately these days, speed limits have little bearing on this. If they did, you would not get the anomalies that exist at present. However, I would ask you how you decide if the speed limit is too fast for the condition?

“ Speed is frequently looked upon as something dangerous in itself , but it is dangerous only if used in the wrong place at the wrong time. Speed then is a relative thing.

What to a novice driver may be a dangerous speed is not necessarily so to a more experienced driver. The choice of speed must be relative to the driver’s ability, the type, condition and limitation of the vehicle and the prevailing road and traffic conditions, bearing in mind that the safe speed for any given section of road may vary from minute to minute as circumstances alter”.

Not my words, but an extract from the 1977 edition of Roadcraft, which was prepared by police officers and embodied the knowledge and experience gained through years of driving under all conditions and was not doctored to fall in line with Government’s policies as later editions appear to have been.

I think speed limits are important (so does the Safe Speed campaign I understand), and if you have limits a speedometer is necessary so you know how fast you are going.

It's not hard!

But that doesn't really answer the question of... is it impossible to drive safely without a speedometer?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Speed limits are only important if set properly. When you get a road that passes alongside a high density housing estate set at 40mph, yet a mile down the road you have a few large houses set well back from the road with wide verges one side and fields on the other and then a bit further on fields on both sides all set at 30mph, I think somewhere the logic has gone drastically wrong. There are miles of country lanes set at 60 mph but no one in their right mind would drive at that speed down them, it would create utter carnage, but the majority cope OK by using their own judgement. So how does this work?

Speed limits should be set on proper engineering principals, not at the whim of some local Councillors as seems to be at the moment. Speed limits at the best can only be a guide, because conditions are constantly changing. So it is all right you saying that speed limits are important, but it still requires your judgement to decide if the limit is too high for the conditions, so I will ask again, how do you weepej, decide that?

Rather self referential don't you think?

A speedometer can be a useful instrument, but it only measures speed not safety. Perhaps a meter that registers braking distance or time would be more useful. With modern technology it could learn how good your tyres are and what the condition of the road surface is. A hud could project this as a coloured zone in front of the car, possibly more as a learning tool than permanently.

My view is that speed limits are, or should be, a guide to the character of a road for drivers not familiar with it. The range of speeds safe to drive will be around that value. So in some senses you do not need a speed sign but a character sign.

Speed is just easy to measure and enforce, doing so has also been a nice little earner since they were invented.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Good idea, why not coloured routes like the runs in skiing?

Towns could be black routes, full of danger. Outer town areas could be red (equivalent to the 40MPH zones now...at least the sensible ones). Dodgy rurals could be blue and good NSL could be green routes (as in countryside)...simples really.

Then people just need to realise that more care, attention and slower speeds are needed on the blacks than the reds,than the blues than the greens.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Ah the old familiarity thing.

I'd bet a given driver familiar with a given road are likely to crash on it more so than one who are not familiar with it...

Yeah, and a lot of them are clearly set way too high! Granted there are some that are probably set too low, but I imagine that's in a massive minority.

Oh the old odds of occurence thing...

of course a driver who is familiar with a road has a higher chance of crashing on that road than a guy who uses it once in his life...the odds are stacked in his favour...poor argument, that a five year old could see through.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

But Weepej, HOW can they possibly be set TOO high? They are only a limit NOT a target as you keep stating.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

And even then it can’t possibly hold true for all conditions; unlike a human brain which can have the wisdom and experience.

If you have wisdom and experience, theoretically there’s no such thing as a limit set too high. If you change a limit above a driver’s comfort level they should still drive to what is safe for themselves and others. But of course you will always get an idiot who revels in unsafe driving - and it’s these whom should be the target of SCPs and it's these whom you should be most worried about!

Another bird-brain-brake notion and misconception of SS is that ‘we’ believe a limit is something to be attained. There are plenty of NSL roads where 60mph is too fast and dangerous; but they are not a problem and you don’t need to change them with a dumb sign.

On any given road the sensible speed will inevitably vary along its length, more often than not. This isn't just about the road itself but the amount and type of traffic using it. There will be places where this “sensible” speed can be slower or faster but this is not, and cannot, be represented by dumb speed limits otherwise you would have to have signs varying about every 50 yards in places!

It’s funny, therefore, that the SCP always choose to put their traps along the “sensible” stretch, instead of the more dangerous potential black spots where at least it would help foster both more respect and credence from drivers who get done driving safely.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Perhaps that's what they mean by "safety camera"...they only position them at the safest part of the road....

I can see why they prefer that name to speed cameras...they aren't for catching people "speeding", more for catching people driving safely...suddenly it all makes sense.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

But any speed limit can be too high at certain times of day, that is the whole problem with speed limits, one size does not fit all. I have asked you the question twice already, but with no answer forthcoming. How do you decide what speed is the right speed for any particuar stretch of road?

Cyclists seem to think so - they don't need speedos ( not the pants type) , to make their way down a road, hopping between the road and the pavement ( and pedestrian dodging on the way) .I've clocked non motorised bikers ( I term them joy boys) at more than the limit in a .Pedestrian in road with traffic at -cars will stop, can the joyboy do so ( or will he be aware /be interested) . I see the same in a non cycling park - toddlers and dogs doing their own thing, then comes along joyboy, who assumes he's got right of way .

But to answer your question - in your million miles of motoring , which takes priority- checking the road ahead for hazards, or checking speed . To me the road is a book, learn to read the signs and you know what speed is safe. To those that have problems, I'd suggest they start learning to read . Then they should remember that on narrow roads, there's a possibility of meeting something that's a bit wider,and needs a bit more space, so less speed ( or better reactions) might be advised . Or if you see it early, advice from my mentor ,was to meet it where the road is wider.That's NOT on a bend .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I wasn't even suggesting that this was about how often one travels down a given stretch of road.

Let me reword that:

I'd bet a given driver familiar with a given road is more likely to crash on it on a single journey than one who is not familiar with it...

Ignoring the lazy generalisation there; well no they don't need speedos as it's not technically possible for a cyclist to break a speed limit on the public highway as speed limits apply to motorised vehicles only.

There's an interesting twist on this in the Royal Parks in London where speed limits apply to all vehicles, and police regularly pull speeding cyclists over for a ticket, a common defence at the time is that the cycle hasn't got a speedo on it or it was switched off, not sure if this has ever been tested in court though!