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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 01:00 
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The Need for Autonomous Vehicle Law
Topics: law, automotive industry
March 16, 2012 By Nicholas Kaasik

What happens if you get into a collision with an autonomous car? Who is legally responsible? The driver? The GPS? The carmaker? Google? And whose fault should it be? The answer is that legally, we don’t know. The development of autonomous cars is accompanied by numerous legal uncertainties that, if left unresolved, may discourage companies from investing in the development of such technologies, despite their great promise for reducing the number of deaths and injuries on our highways. State legislatures should be encouraged to develop a clear legal framework that encourages investment in the development of autonomous vehicles.

Currently, carmakers are releasing and developing driver assistance technologies which include semi-autonomous systems. How will the law treat these threshold technologies? Existing driver assistance features (like radar systems that automatically brake prior to an accident) involve countless owner’s manual disclaimers that the driver is at all times responsible, but what about the next level of automation? What if you could make your car follow the car in front of it perfectly … would the driver be responsible then? A legal regime should encourage the prudent development of these threshold technologies in order to advance towards more perfect safety systems. Fear of exposure to liability could discourage innovation regarding imperfect driver assistance technologies, but these partial measures must be developed in order to advance toward safer and more autonomous systems. A legal liability scheme demanding crash-free perfection would be an enemy of progress.

What for the fully autonomous vehicle? Do we require there be a licensed driver? Could a Cornell student from New York City who has never driven a car rent an autonomous Ithaca Carshare? It’s hard to imagine why anyone would need to prove they can parallel park if their car can do so automatically. Nevada has updated their laws to allow texting while “driving” a licensed autonomous car, but Nevada has prohibited being intoxicated in the same autonomous vehicle.

In present day software use, users frequently click “accept” on a license agreement that disclaims any harm that results from using the software. It is understood that any software product will have some type of latent glitch. What does this mean when the software is driving a family down the highway? Would you get in an autonomous car that made you click “accept” to a license agreement that disclaimed any harm that results from the autonomous car driving off a bridge? Would a court enforce such a contract?

What should the law be regarding speeding and autonomous cars? Is the car company negligent in designing a car with a feature that allows the car to knowingly break the law? A current car is capable of breaking the speed limit; an autonomous car would know it is breaking the speed limit. One radical suggestion (which would certainly require clear legal rules) is to have the car decide for itself what the optimal safe speed is. After all, an autonomous car would have a better grasp of its handling, current driving conditions, obstacles on the road and visibility than a speed limit which has remained static on that stretch of road for 50 or more years. Also, an autonomous car may not compete well with the constant bending of traffic laws you see on any busy highway or at any busy intersection. Would a car that followed the traffic laws perfectly seriously disrupt the flow of traffic and is that unsafe and counterproductive?

The invention of autonomous cars requires new laws to resolve these questions. I do not propose to have the answers to what the best laws should be. To some degree, the exact laws that are adopted (so long as they’re reasonable and do not deter innovation) are less important than the existence of a clear legal regime within which the developers of autonomous vehicles can innovate and integrate their products onto our roads. Legal uncertainty inhibits innovation by risk-averse companies and people afraid of potentially ruinous liability. One is hopeful that the law be updated early on, both to encourage the development of autonomous vehicles as well as to contemplate the law soberly and impartially before major and vested interest groups can hijack the lawmaking process.

The great hope for autonomous cars is that fatal car accidents will cease to be regular news. Studies find that up to 90% of car accidents are due to human error. To realize this hope, our motor vehicle laws must be updated. It would be counterproductive and tragic if the motor vehicle laws, laws created to provide for safe and orderly public roads, stymied our progress by lagging so far behind the development of such revolutionary safety technologies as semi-autonomous and autonomous vehicles.

Twenty years ago, a discussion of changing our laws for autonomous vehicles would have been delegated to a science fiction conference. Today, the Nevada Motor Vehicle Laws allow texting while “driving” an autonomous vehicle. Other states are considering following suit. Twenty years from now, our legal debate may be whether to allow society to face the risk of letting human drivers behind the wheel at all. That is, so long as the fear of legal liability doesn’t keep us from getting there.

Nick Kaasik is a first-year law student at Cornell Law School. He may be reached at jpc58@cornell.edu. Barely Legal appears alternate Fridays this semester.
Some very sobering considerations !
My initial thoughts are that absolutely the motorist has to be responsible at all times no matter what the level of technology.
How they have considered it safe for a driver to be allowed to text (esp when in the States 'push to talk' is so common) defies belief, (although I have no experience at the specific automated cars that this applies to, but even then it is hard to imagine) !

However if technology is really advancing and being 'allowed to drive' vehicles, then perhaps these decisions are beginning to become a reality! Would the UK take this same stance ?

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 08:44 
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Alot of this... and plenty more has been technically possible for decades, and maybe financially viable for at least 10years. (I've seen a video from the 80s of a lane following vehicle on the m42.... and worked on emergency automatic braking / collision mitigation in the early 2000s)

My understanding was that they were being held back by liability concerns and lack of legal precedent, i.e. no one wants to be the first to pay the bills to establish the precedent !
The norm in europe seems to be to let Bosch & Merecedes be first to market or first with the risk and then follow on after. (I can think of at least one example of a braking technology which was completely abandoned after an unsuccesful launch).

I suspect current UK laws cover it adequately, and would put much onus on the manufacturer & supplier to prove a safe, reliable & consistent behaviour.
Iso 26262 standard is new out and is an attempt at an automotive specific safety standard for just these kinds of systems, whether adequate or how it stands in court yet to be proven i think.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 19:07 
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http://www.reghardware.com/2012/05/28/volvo_tests_project_sartre_on_public_roads/

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 21:49 
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I thought that we already had these "machines" - they are called "trains".

They have worked pretty well for hundreds of years - they even invented stations and viaducts and tunnels for them. Yup, they are a viable concept.

However, would you want to put a train on a road???

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 23:52 
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The Need for Autonomous Vehicle Law
Topics: law, automotive industry
March 16, 2012 By Nicholas Kaasik

...One radical suggestion (which would certainly require clear legal rules) is to have the car decide for itself what the optimal safe speed is. After all, an autonomous car would have a better grasp of its handling, current driving conditions, obstacles on the road and visibility than a speed limit which has remained static on that stretch of road for 50 or more years...


Clearly he has no grasp of road safety! As we all know, exceeding a speed limit is ALWAYS dangerous - you'd have thought an autonomous car would be programmed to know that, wouldn't you?! :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 00:01 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Some very sobering considerations !
My initial thoughts are that absolutely the motorist has to be responsible at all times no matter what the level of technology.

But therein lies the problem! As a motorist, I am happy to accept responsibility for something I have control over, and ONLY something I have control over! My big fear is that because these things WILL, I'm sure, be generally better than most drivers, most of the time, it will only be a matter of time before they are first incentivised with the lure of lower insurance premiums, and then mandated by legislation. When that happens, I'm damned if I'm going to carry the can for someone else's cock-ups when I was forced to "drive" one in the first place!

SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
How they have considered it safe for a driver to be allowed to text (esp when in the States 'push to talk' is so common) defies belief, (although I have no experience at the specific automated cars that this applies to, but even then it is hard to imagine) !


Dunno. My first reaction is that I'm either in control of the vehicle or I'm not. I don't see any halfway position being feasible. If my car really IS going to drive itself, I would expect the same freedoms that I have on a train (i.e. being able to drink AND text)! They can't have their cake and eat it! Either I'm responsible for what it does, or IT is. A shared responsibility would, in my view, be a recipe for disaster.

SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
However if technology is really advancing and being 'allowed to drive' vehicles, then perhaps these decisions are beginning to become a reality! Would the UK take this same stance ?
I hope not. It wouldn't be good news for "classic" car drivers.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 10:49 
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Mole wrote:
My first reaction is that I'm either in control of the vehicle or I'm not. I don't see any halfway position being feasible. If my car really IS going to drive itself, I would expect the same freedoms that I have on a train (i.e. being able to drink AND text)! They can't have their cake and eat it! Either I'm responsible for what it does, or IT is. A shared responsibility would, in my view, be a recipe for disaster.

Absolutely - surely the whole point of autonomous vehicles is that they go well beyond driver aids and mean that no control is exercised by vehicle occupants.

As you say, if they became established and were proved to be safer than human-controlled vehicles, there would inevitably be pressure to remove the latter from the roads, which would be another surrender of individual responsibility to technological control.

Ever read The Machine Stops by E. M. Forster?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 13:16 
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boomer wrote:
However, would you want to put a train on a road???

mb
Thanks to European law we already have things nearly as big and heavy boomer. :x

Any system in this country would need pothole avoidance system technology or PAST.©

You heard it here first... :D

(I was going to say pothole integrated special systems) :P

:coat:

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 13:34 
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Mole wrote:
My first reaction is that I'm either in control of the vehicle or I'm not. I don't see any halfway position being feasible. If my car really IS going to drive itself, I would expect the same freedoms that I have on a train (i.e. being able to drink AND text)! They can't have their cake and eat it! Either I'm responsible for what it does, or IT is. A shared responsibility would, in my view, be a recipe for disaster.
Absolutely! Either you are a passenger or a driver. That said, aeroplanes have a co-pilot :scratchchin: I do like the idea that it would presumably open a new world for the disabled though :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 14:24 
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I think one of the first things that gets drummed into pilots is to say "I have control" to each other when swapping over, so that there's absolutely no misunderstanding - precisely, I guess, for the reasons you're citing? There would have to be the same absolute, unequivocal agreement between "driver" and "autopilot". I can just see it hitting a patch of ice one day, loosing it big time, and, just before it hits the wall, handing over control to the "driver"! Many years ago, mate let me have a fly of his model glider. all went well at first, then I did something wrong, and as it plummeted towards the ground, I quickly handed him the controller! (and he actually managed to pull it out of the dive about 10 feet above the ground - we could see daylight between the wings and the top of the fuselage as the elastic bands holding them on stretched with the G)!

It will certainly help provide personal mobility tothe disabled. (but will kill off some of the businesses doing that already).


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 16:58 
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Mole wrote:
It will certainly help provide personal mobility tothe disabled. (but will kill off some of the businesses doing that already).
Yes, you’re right there Mole.

Another thought that’s just occurred to me is a moral dilemma; probably one of many..

Let’s say the KSI is dramatically improved, or radically reduced, you are effectively saying we know this system isn’t perfect but since the casualties are better than before we will use it. So, in effect, we would be accepting a system which is known to kill and maim.

Now I don’t know about anyone else here but somehow that doesn’t sit right with me :? as opposed to a greater KSI because of human error and stupidity. I can’t resolve this dichotomy I have between saving lives and having ‘a machine’ in control which does it better.

I guess if or when that day comes someone would have to make that decision; like the PM?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 21:04 
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Big Tone wrote:

I guess if or when that day comes someone would have to make that decision; like the PM?


WMD and the ideology behind it springs to mind . Personally ,when I drive off, I'm in control.Not a computer .After all it's my life that's in the balance, and my experience of driving in a vast range of conditions ( from the white wastes of the borders & the west highlands in the depths of winter to sandy tracts in the middle of Africa) in over 45 years and more than 2.5million accident free miles leads me not to trust any computer. Only takes one glitch and it's over .Why then do the rail network use three to check that all is well, and then if any one contradicts the other two ,then panic takes over .
There's too many gadgets taking over from the driver, where a concept of COAST and being aware of conditions is a better safeguard than total control . On the subject of control - last Gov't tried that with road safety ,and look at the mess we're now in . No control of speed, just an idea that speed is wrong .Times I wonder if those in charge of road safety are all on SPEED ( in tablet form) :D

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 22:50 
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Seems to me that much of this was covered decades ago in Sci-Fi. Nobody will be allowed to "Own" an autonomous vehicle. You probabally will not even be allowed to use manual controll!

The vehicles will remain the property (and the responsibility) of the manufactureor. "Users" will only be able to lease/rent them.

(All Robots remain the property of U.S. Robotics and Mechanical Men, Inc.!)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 08:07 
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Hmmmm where to start !

Clearly a road network of self driving vehicles is many generations away (unless you use the right car park at heathrow :wink: ), if it comes at all.
Any system will need to work with conventional HOV's (sorry just made that up.. human operated vehicles :lol: ) from the outset so there's always going to be precedent for integrating with normal traffic flow.

Any system in automotive which can take control away from the driver (either in normal operation or as a failure) is deemed safety critical and with liability & reputation at stake measures far beyond any (current) legislation are already in place.... with detailed safety analysis, diagnostics, multiple processors, watchdogs, redundancy etc. etc.
It's not like any t, d or h is going to be bolting an actuator and a webcam onto their car anytime soon (altho, also technically possible :o ).

I'll leave you all to the philosophical argument about whether such a system is where we want to be going!


More thoughts later perhaps.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 09:17 
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botach wrote:
Big Tone wrote:

I guess if or when that day comes someone would have to make that decision; like the PM?
WMD and the ideology behind it springs to mind . Personally ,when I drive off, I'm in control.Not a computer... Only takes one glitch and it's over .
I’m with you botach, but my concern is with having automated machines in complete, autonomous, control. I remember someone telling me in a modern commercial aeroplane the pilot once said “sorry for the delay, I’ve got to do the equivalent of Ctrl/Alt/Delete”. :o Although the most reliable means of transport, these things can and do go wrong. It’s very hard to outdo the human brain when it’s working at 100% I think. Trouble is, most drivers don’t use 100% of it concentrating on driving these days. :x

When you think about it, what modern technology isn’t a pain in the ass? My smart phone is buggy; the digital T.V. switchover is crap! (Pixilated picture breakup all the damn time despite the claim when terrestrial ended they would boost the digital). Remember when I mentioned my Mazda 323 Sport car? If you fluffed it at a junction on a cold morning you sat there for the next three minutes trying to start it. I finally threw my toaster out with defrost function and an array of other features, wishing I’d kept my original old-fashioned, but reliable, one. The worst thing is we all just accept these niggles as part of modern life, impotent to do anything about them and increasingly hard to buy or use the old stuff.

ed_m wrote:
Any system will need to work with conventional HOV's (sorry just made that up.. human operated vehicles :lol: ) from the outset so there's always going to be precedent for integrating with normal traffic flow.
That could be interesting ed, the human saying it was the other cars fault and the other car saying 100110111001100000001110101111.... :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:15 
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Big Tone wrote:
ed_m wrote:
Any system will need to work with conventional HOV's (sorry just made that up.. human operated vehicles :lol: ) from the outset so there's always going to be precedent for integrating with normal traffic flow.
That could be interesting ed, the human saying it was the other cars fault and the other car saying 100110111001100000001110101111.... :D


and for exactly that reason i'd expect mainstream to be extremely cautious (as they already are/have been) about releasing that kind of functionality onto production vehicles..... and probably have quite a large amount of data logging on !


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 19:15 
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To add on to Tone's post. Last week I drove a car with an electric parking brake. To operate, foot had to be on brake pedal and button operated ( one way for on ,other way for off) . No way would it come off taking away till foot was on brake pedal. Tried it on a slight slope -clutch to catching point, foot on brake and then quickly to throttle-no change in engine revs ,as I would expect if the ECU read the incline,and engine getting to stall point. So looks like it's heel & toe to take away on a hill( or grow an extra leg ,or use a walking stick) . And forger to stand on brake pedal - boing boing boing, and message "step on brake pedal) ,then wait 30 s for message to go off .
Not impressed with modern so called advances .

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 14:10 
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You'll get used to it! Didn't it have a "hill hold" function as well? Many of them do. They often also have various modes of operation which varies from one manufacturer to the next. On my current one, the handbrake (electric) won't come off unless you're EITHER resting one foot on the brake pedal OR letting the clutch out in any gear, AND (in either case) your seat belt is buckled. You can over-ride the seat belt thing, by resting your foot on the brake, but then, when you turn the ignition off, it doesn't re-apply itself automatically! I found that one out the hard way when I moved the car a few feet to a different parking space. Obviously, didn't bother with the belt for that "trip", and released the handbrake by putting my foot on the brake pedal. Unfortunately, when I then parked it in the new space and got out, it didn't apply it's handbrake automatically as it usually does, and rolled a few inches into the hedge!

But getting back to driverless, whilst I accept Tone's concern that the can (and will) go wrong, they're not likely to "go wrong" and often as people do, so there will be a net improvement in safety. The only problem (as everyone has already remarked) is that the liability is complex. Society has got used to a certain number of drivers each year, making mistakes that kill people. It's much less used to the idea of machines making them, so it's likely to be disproportionately unforgiving when an autonomou car makes a "mistake" - depite the overall safety benefit in the wider sense.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 22:04 
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Fortunately the car was a hire one. Back to the automated business. I'm an electronics /comms bloke, with a ( self learned interest in mechanics, from owning a car in the days of few decent garages around. My technical background taught me to work out how it worked, what was not working, and then the cure was simply a deduction ) . Problem is that I've seen too much stuff shoved out on the market with the aim of beating the competition to the punch. Back to hire car - I found that I could pre empt low MPG figures by driving anticipation, over the cruise control . Can any system be programmed to look at the road ahead , and take account of traffic variations several vehicles ahead, and decide ( as I do )that the blonde in the car three ahead is an accident waiting to happen ,so I'll hang back,or that johnny with the loud music, and phone glued to ear in the car in front might be worth watching out for . or that the BMW (it's always one of them ,or an Audi A3) won't be obeying lane discipline,and could stray into my lane on the island .
My old dad gave me two driving principles " it's easier to give way than to fill in insurance forms, ",AND "BETTER TO BE A LIVE COWARD THAN A DEAD HERO" . Same difference. But will an automated car be able to recognise who's got right of way on a tight road .Me - when I get a telegram from the Queen ( or possibly it'l be the king) ,I might think about getting into one of these cars. Till then -sorry - count me out . I've seen too many stories of 2the computer got it wrong" to trust my life to one of these just yet . :D

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 22:11 
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They used to say the same about hydraulic brakes!

Anyway, presumably you're happy to get on a plane?

In a les flippant vein though, I've absolutely no idea how the self-driving car can pick up those cues. Sure, it can scan the road ahead for movement - will probably pick things up that we wouldn't, in fact, but it's a bit like my electronic stability control. If there's a wide, open bend with a big run-off, it wil lsometimes cut in to save my life when it doesn't need saving. It sometimes does the same sort of thing when it doesn't know that actually, the road widens out just a bit roudn the bend, and that I actually wanted it to understeer a bit to get it in the right place for the next bend. or, indeed, a bit like the GPS which wil ltake you the "quickest" route, but it won't know that such-and-such a raod is always busy at this time, so it's actually quicker to take a slightly longer route on this occasion. The honest answer is that I really don't know how it could ever be expected to do these things, but it's not my field and I'm sure there wil lbe some pretty clever people working on it!


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